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 Post subject: Re: A COMPETITION for us BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS too........

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I also want to participate.


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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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The title of the thread has been renamed in accordance with the change in direction of this discussion..... from a competition towards Coaching sessions for TGF's beginner shooters.

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 Post subject: Re: A COMPETITION for us BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS too........

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Furrukh wrote:
Saif wrote:
Guys, challenge yourself! Have the buster drill as it is, please. Reducing it will not be fun enough. Even one round out of 3 in the A zone will be pretty encouraging. Go ahead, increase points/score for 25mtr distance, and see who can then score most.


Saif bhai 25m is my demon which I'm not ready to face atleast for the time being. Atleast till I get my basic errors rectified. The only reason why I personally disagreed with the idea of manual reloading was because in real life situations we'll most probably be carrying 2 mags at full capacity. But if the beginner boys want to do it that way then I'll comply


@Furrukh bro,
Aim small, miss small. And this holds true in practicality. When I first shot at a water bottle at 50mtrs (my experience was around 400-500 shots at that time, Feb 2011) I realized the difference between POA and POI... You have to face that demon bro, and trust me, it is not difficult at all. Two outings at bottles @50mtrs, and I graduated from 15mtr to 25mtrs (not to mention the 100 and 200mtr adventure in between, yes, and with a sp01 shadow). The scores from 25mtrs were not very good initially, but they did improve in due course of time. Trust me, it is all in the mind. I had encouragement from KBW, SA, THI (hardly seen on forum these days), HMR, our own Gunpsycho bro, but was not as lucky as you as except for KBW (who was in another town) and HMR at that time, all of the us were at beginner level. We used to try to figure out our mistakes in our own mistaken ways! Now, you have quite a few experienced shooters to go to in FK, SA, HMR, perhaps myself, and a very good range master at ASCC. Why are you so hesitant. Man-up bro. If someone else can do it, so can you, and all the other beginners.

Regarding Buster drill, I recall you had a tough time with ammo in your pockets. In a panic situation, one could lose mags in the pocket. That is what this is about. Nothing more. A drill to test the shooter in different scenarios. Just to make it more challenging.

Device your own drill, a simple, but challenging one. I also suggested a few in practical shooting drills thread. Check them out.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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em ready for this sunday...

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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It has been mentioned in various threads by various members that loading the carts during the drill is an impractical thing. I would say its a very practical thing which can save one's life some day. Why have we taken it as granted that an SD encounter will mostly take place at 3-5 m only and one would be having two mags containing approx 15 rounds each so there would never be a situation when one will have to reload. There are many SD encounters which take place at more than 25 m, specially in areas outside the city and in few odd encounters, one may end up exhausting his mags. What if that happens? What will one do........ Curse the FBI on their study? I have seen people missing at 10 ft and unable to hold the cartridges properly, dropping them with trembling hands while loading the mags in actual situations. An average person, in my experience, may perform as low as 10% of his actual skill during real SD situations. As Saif said, during training, Aim Small Miss Small.

Yes.... shooting from longer distances and exhausting ones mags might not happen very often but even SD encounters don't take place very often. It may be one in thousand of occasions that a person may get involved in an SD encounter. One must train for the worst because worst might happen and that time, one should not feel that despite spending hundreds of thousands of rupees and man-hours, he was still unable to perform (if he stays alive to think like that.) That is the golden training rule, IMHO.

If members want to reduce the distance to 3-5 m or 10 m, by all means. If they feel there should be no reloading of carts sure they can do that. They can design the drill the way they like it. But please do not say that these are impractical things.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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I second KBW in his opinion. The 3 to 5 meter FBI study is irrelevant from my point of view. Heck, even if you're residing in a 400 sq to 600 sq yard house (layout: main gate, garden and then the constructed area) and you have to engage a target who has just entered your premises and you're standing at the balcony on first floor or the entrance of the inner structure, the distances involved are normally 15 to 25 meters. Mian Taimur, one of our members had an shoot out (firing exchange) with burglars inside his house' basement where he was shooting while standing behind a pillar and the 2 BGs standing behind another wall exactly 18 meters away. And Taimur was missing them (well, so were the BGs). It was only when one of the BG got over confident and walked towards him that MT finally shot him from 3 meters distance after which the other BG ran away. But are we waiting for a BG to confidently come so close knowing that we won't be able to hit him from greater distance?

This is a foolish notion that we should only train for a 3 to 5 meter engagement. I'd say, forget the FBI study. Consider your house layout, your daily travelling routes, your daily routine AND the related threats and THEN see whether you need to train just for 3 to 5 meters or more.

There are also some who advocate that there is always a rifle for greater distances. Well, my answer is that, I do not carry an AK47 or MP5 in my car as a routine. It's just my primary CCW handgun.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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See you guys tomorrow insha'Allah

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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Same here. Me an my sis would attend. However last week my preference for wheel guns meant i could not participate in the buster drill.

:(

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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Just came back from the range. I was lucky to have utlized the special coaching session arranged by the seniors. Special thanks to SA to help me throughtout. I would say that blokes who did not utlize this opportunity missed a great learning experience. Since the beginning I was complaining about my flinching problems but with SA by my side the I tried to work on the following:

1. Discovering my comfortable / natural shooting stance
2. Breathing
3. Trigger pull
4. Various pressure points of gripping

Thanks for the wonderful experience SA. Looking forward to the next round.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS

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@ Everyone,

Today was a one of the best days I've had at the shooting range. TGF Members, who have (some now "had") beginner-level shooting skills, benefited today from knowledge and experiences of TGF's relatively more experienced shooters vis-a-vis, Saif, HMR and the Range Master (I was also trying to chip in every now and then :ugeek: ) and among the members who came and benefited from this session were:

1) Furrukh

2) M.I.

3) Enigmatic Desires

4) ED's sister

5) ISK

6) Muhammad Arbab

7) Canik


@ Furrukh,

Furrukh, the improvement in your shooting as was witnessed today, and which I am about to share with everyone, was 90% because of your own willingness to learn, patience to absorb what was being conveyed and then applying your learning.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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FURRUKH:


BEFORE

This was Furrukh's performance from 15 meters last Sunday.

Image


COACHING

THE STANCE

Image

Image

THE GRIP

Image


FIRST STRING From 15 Meters

Image


SECOND STRING From 15 Meters

Image


THIRD STRING From 10 Meters

Image


FOURTH STRING From 10 Meters

Image


FIFTH STRING Back to 15 Meters

Image


SIXTH STRING Back to 15 Meters

Image


SEVENTH STRING Back to 15 Meters

Image


MAIN LEARNING POINTS WHICH HELPED IMPROVE FURRUKH'S SHOOTING:

1) Natural Stance

2) Finding the correct grip

3) Trigger control - squeeeeeeeeze. Gettin that flinch outta the system

4) Focus on front sight - let the target go BLURR

5) Breathing.

Shooting errors were identified and removed ONE BY ONE. First flinching was identified and addressed. Next gripping issue was solved. Next breathing was addressed and lastly, but most importantly, trigger control.

And the RESULTS are in front of everyone :)

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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M.I.:


COACHING

THE STANCE

Image

Image


THE GRIP

Image


FIRST STRING From 15 Meters

Image


SECOND STRING From 15 Meters

Image


THIRD STRING From 15 Meters

Image


FOURTH STRING From 15 Meters

Image


FIFTH STRING From 15 Meters

Image


SIXTH STRING From 15 Meters

Image



In M.I.'s case also, like in case of Furrukh, errors were addressed individually and efforts were made to remove them.

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Bolt actions speak louder than words

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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That must have been a great coaching session. In most countries of the world, it would have been quite expensive too. So thanks to SA and other senior shooters who dedicated their time for helping the new shooters. It's a great spirit.

@Farrukh
That's very good improvement. Just keep practicing brother. BTW, The COG (center of gravity) of your body is leaning backward and neck is quite stiff. You will have a much relaxed stance if you keep the COG of your body a little forward / leaning forward and keep the neck relaxed and in a natural position. Bring the gun to your eye instead of bending your neck for aligning your eye with the sights of the gun. :)

@MI
Nice shooting brother. If I see it correctly in the pics, you being a right hander are keeping your right foot forward. This is a very un-comfortable standing position in my view. If you are shooting with right hand, your left foot should be a little forward or closer to the target as compared to right foot OR if you have a square stance than both feet should be in one line, ie, equi-distant from the target. Overall, the COG of your body should be a little forward or just perpendicular to your feet.

@All
Please git rid of this scoring. Shoot on the reverse side of the target so that the scoring rings do not bother you. Measure the size of group instead of counting the scores on the ring. During a practice session, IT IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE that how much you scored. What matters is that how consistently you practiced / applied the technique. Consistency is reflected by the size of group. Scoring is just an irritant at this stage so get rid of it. It will misguide you and put your focus in the wrong direction.

regards

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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Thank you KBW for your valuable inputs. This is exactly what we want, our senior shooters to review the stance and grip of different members and advise them.

Regarding shooting at blank targets (reverse side)... I totally agree and also that the aim at the moment should be to reduce group size.

One more thing on which we'd like your feedback... What do you recommend should be the distance at which we should coach beginner-level shooters - 10 meters or 15 meters?

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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CANIK:

Image

Image

Image

Image

The last group marked in white (star) was with a Caracal C.

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Bolt actions speak louder than words

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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I.S.K.

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Bolt actions speak louder than words

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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ARBAB

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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ED's SISTER:

She was probably shooting for the first time in her life and was initially having trouble in gripping the revolver and all her shots were going over the target from even 5 meters. A little coaching with respect to hold to grip the revolver and aligning of sights brought her shots on the target.

Image

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Bolt actions speak louder than words

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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Very good initiative by the management of TGF. I think this the only forum where willing, inexperienced members are taught the basics of marksmanship.
I agree with KBW Sb that this costs hundreds of Bucks elsewhere. One of the perk of being a TGF member.
@SA
Your efforts produced evident results. Good job.


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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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@SA
IMV, 15 m should be the minimum distance for a serious practice, except for ladies. 10 m is too small a distance to identify mistakes correctly.


@Canik
Brother, the COG of your body is also leaning backward. Please keep it a little forward and your body would be more balanced.

@All
For the next few range session, please take a simple white drawing chart along and use it as a target. Do not use these standard pistol targets. Shoot on a plain white sheet. Measure the groups instead of counting the scores. JUST FORGET ABOUT SCORING FOR A WHILE. Shoot on a plain white sheet with nothing marked on it. It will help you in learning the basics better.

regards

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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I would like to thank SA/HMR/GP/Saif for spending valuable time trying to teach beginners like myself who may have had guns for a very long time but are extremely poor shooters. This was a great initiative by the TGF management and i would pray it would not stop here.

Things I was taught by SA
1) Stance
2) Grip
3) Trigger control
4) Sights
5) Breating

The initial FLINCH issue was resolved thanks to HMRs diagnosis when he handed me his weapon saying it was loaded and to fire it, my brain told me it was loaded and i fired and realized that it was not and that i had flinched. HMR, thank you for that, it took SA 2 sessions to get rid of this problem.

KBW, sir, very well pointed out, though i may have shot a number of rounds today, i have not yet found the correct stance/grip/trigger control. I did put my left foot fwd being a right hander but felt my shots going all over the place. SA then explained to me about finding my natural stance, that may perhaps not be the most comfortable, in the next session i would like to practice with my left foot a bit in front.

While gripping i was unable to decide where to rest my left thumb, i had it at 3 different places, i think i MAY have found the right placement for this and would like to experiment with this further, SA can perhaps guide me better here.

The trigger control: I felt i was anticipating the weapon to fire and i had to deliberately tell my brain not to worry about the recoil, SA/HMR told me counter this issue by exhaling when pulling the trigger and that too in a smooth motion and to give my arm a rest after every shot.

All in all, the basic point is that i have to keep practicing and practicing to be able to deal with these issues, that i am hoping are not too difficult to overcome but will require a lot of determination/time/investment and of course patience from the seniors who need to guide beginners like myself to get better.

SA: Thank you for a very well organized event, oh and on a light note, sell me the 75 D :)..


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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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What would be the POA on a blank paper? The first shot?


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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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Wajeeh Hasan wrote:
What would be the POA on a blank paper? The first shot?


The human eye automatically tries to centralize the target. Blurr out the target, focus on basics (front sight, trigger etc), breath, breath, hold your breath, bang. Repeat for all the shots. Always try to centralize the target in blurred vision.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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I am thankful to all who arranged such a beneficial event for beginners. It was such a nice learning experience from really really helpful members.


Jazak'Allah kher.

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 Post subject: Re: COACHING for TGF's BEGINNER-LEVEL SHOOTERS | October 201

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MI wrote:
KBW, sir, very well pointed out, though i may have shot a number of rounds today, i have not yet found the correct stance/grip/trigger control. I did put my left foot fwd being a right hander but felt my shots going all over the place. SA then explained to me about finding my natural stance, that may perhaps not be the most comfortable, in the next session i would like to practice with my left foot a bit in front.
MI, brother sometimes a new shooter feels more comfortable with a stance which is technically "not correct". He will definitely show some improvement with a wrong technique also but after a while the improvement will stop and the shooter will get frustrated. Therefore, it is important to learn the correct technique at the start.
Let me put it this way. A batsman might feel more comfortable hitting a ball while not coming in line. This way, he might be able to play few spectacular shots also but whenever he will face a quality bowler or under pressure situations, he will flunk because he is lacking in technique. So it's very important to learn the correct technique. Keeping you left foot slightly forward (just slightly) or keeping it in line with right foot will keep your body more stable and will help you in keeping the COG of your body slightly forward which is desirable. Try that in your room.

Natural stance does not mean that one can stand and shoot anyway he feels like. You can test it in your room. Just place a small target on the wall at a height which is in line with your arms when raised, stand infront of it and hold a gun in your hands and you do while actually shooting. Align yourself with the target roughly. Then close your eyes and raise your hands bringing them to a comfortable shooting position, trying to aim at the target while keeping your eyes closed. When you are done, open your eyes and see that how far off you are from the actual target. Now move your left foot forward / backward to make the adjustment which brings the sights on the target, without changing the position of your hand / arms. Try it again. Close your eyes, raise the gun and when it comes to natural position, open your eyes. If required, make the adjustments again. The position from where you can find your gun laid on the target while keeping your eyes closed is your natural shooting position / stance. Note the positioning of your arms and feet in that position and practice it during the training sessions.



Wajeeh Hasan wrote:
What would be the POA on a blank paper? The first shot?
There will be no POA. Just aim in the center of the blank sheet roughly and your eye will find a POA without you knowing about it. So don't bother about it. Just concentrate on the technique, that is correct stance / grip, correct sight alignment / focussing on front sight tip, correct breathing, correct trigger control and follow up. Just don't bother about the POA.

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