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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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Indeed the results are not satisfactory when we compare our precision shooting results with our practical shooting results. And anyone, in their right frame of mind will can never expect these two to be in any way comparable.

Because we have been practicing precision shooting during the last couple of years, we were able to land rounds on the target. On the other hand, those who have not been able to refine their basic shooting techniques, will not be able to land the shots on the target, during this drill, even from 15 meters. Try it.

So my advice would be to first be able to, at the least, make 4 to 5 inch groups from 15 meters on consistent basis and then think about trying your hand with practical shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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We need proper silhouette targets to practice these drills. That way the drills will be more practical and interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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SA wrote:
Indeed the results are not satisfactory when we compare our precision shooting results with our practical shooting results. And anyone, in their right frame of mind will can never expect these two to be in any way comparable.

Because we have been practicing precision shooting during the last couple of years, we were able to land rounds on the target. On the other hand, those who have not been able to refine their basic shooting techniques, will not be able to land the shots on the target, during this drill, even from 15 meters. Try it.

So my advice would be to first be able to, at the least, make 4 to 5 inch groups from 15 meters on consistent basis and then think about trying your hand with practical shooting.

+1

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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I agree with SA and we have debated this issue time and again that without going through sound primary education, one is not in a position to directly appear in matriculation exams and perform well. It is possible that one odd brilliant or gifted guy might do well in the exam but most would fail or perform miserably if they straightaway try to appear in matric exam, expecting that they would learn ABC and 123 and grammar during the process of preparation for the matric exams.

Again, we are confusing "basic shooting training" with Bull's Eye shooting. Please differentiate between these two disciplines. Basic shooting training is required for every shooter whereas Bull's Eye Shooting or Precision Shooting is a specialized sport shooting discipline. What SA is referring to is basic shooting training and not Bull's Eye Shooting. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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@ KBW,

Sir, what are your views about use of Silhouette targets instead of these precision targets during such practical shooting drills?

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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MythBuster wrote:
Arrangement: We need three targets placed at 10 ft away from each other in one line. Since standard pistols targets are already available with most of us we can use the same target. If there is some other target than we can usethat also. There should be marking for three firing points at 25 m, 15 m and 10 m.
25 m point should be infront of left target and at 45 degree from this point toward right side we should have 15 m point infront of target 3 (right most). We need 9 rounds and a stop watch for this drill.
We can use silhouetted targets or any kind of targets. However, there is a need to ensure standardisation otherwise the score would not be compatible. Seeing the logic given by MB in the quote above, I think he recommended standard pistol target because it is readily available with most of us and can be easily downloaded from TGF site. Using standard pistol targets may not technically be the best thing for this kind of shooting but has the advantage of being readily available and being much cheaper. Availability of Silhouetted targets of similar dimensions in different parts of the country may be an issue. If the size is exactly not same, scores would not be compatible.

In my personal view, we should keep this drill easily manageable and least expensive. Arrangements should be simple. But we can discuss this further if others feel that way.



SA wrote:
Scoring was not possible as the target used had rings only till 5. I was a bit confused at the end because I was wondering whether it would have been more beneficial if Silhouette targets had been used instead of these precision shooting targets.
What MB explained and which I followed was quite simple. Quote from MB's post on page 5...

Quote:
5. For scoring, it can be as follows
- Target should have two scoring areas. One the black area which is upto 7 ring and the other is white area outside 7 ring.
- From 25 m, shooter should get 10 points for hitting in black area and 5 points for white area. No point for shots outside target.
- From 15 and 10 m, he should get 6 points for black area and 3 points in white area. Zero points outside target.


So it is very simple in my view. Full points in black area of the target, half points in the white area of the target and zero points if the shot is outside the standard pistol target.


Now, a few suggestions from my side to keep the drill more practical and realistic.....
1. As per my understanding, the firing points at 25, 15 and 10 m are areas where shooter has some sort of cover (imaginary). So in my view, when the shooter moves out from the cover, he should have a loaded gun in his hand and should be ready to fire. It is un-realistic and very dangerous in actual situation to leave cover with a gun which is not loaded. Therefore, change of magazine and loading of carts should be done at the firing point and not while moving towards the next firing point. One should not leave cover unless he is prepared to fire. I practiced it this way and did not do anything on move. Secondly, kneeling down for loading the carts also has a logic. At that time, one is vulnerable because the gun is not loaded. It is better to present a smaller target to the opponent at that time (kneeling) instead of a bigger target (standing).

2. The shooter should not throw the mag on ground. It is never done in practical life and I have never seen a shooter dropping his gun mag and running towards some other place. I know it's a norm in IPSC but I have never been convinced on the practicality of this drill. In real life, no shooter drops his mag like that and leaves it there. Therefore, IMHO, it would be more practical if the shooter keeps the magazine with him. In fact a shooter should only carry two magazines in this drill. One in the gun and one in the magazine pouch.

We can discuss this further and have more suggestions :)

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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I m 100% convinced with KBW Sahib


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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Nice suggestions KBW! I also was of the opinion that loading should be done under cover, and not while moving.

Also, I personally think (other may differ) that loading rounds in the magazine while conducting this drill is not practical. Loading mags should be done before hand and loaded mags used for this drill.

Also, 25m target is a bit too far for "practical" drills, 10-15 m or less would be fine!

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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@ KBW,

Thanks fort he clarification and nice suggestions . We will try it out this Sunday and post results here.

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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Mangloo Ramzani wrote:
Also, I personally think (other may differ) that loading rounds in the magazine while conducting this drill is not practical. Loading mags should be done before hand and loaded mags used for this drill.
How I see it is that in this drill, one is practicing most of the actions that a shooter might come across during a practical situation. Loading drill is a very useful drill and is followed by most professional training institutions. One may rarely come across a situation where he exhausts both (or all) his magazines and has to reload, however, it is a possibility and there is no harm in practicing it.

Mangloo Ramzani wrote:
Also, 25m target is a bit too far for "practical" drills, 10-15 m or less would be fine!
In my view, this drill provides and opportunity to practice most aspects / situations that one may encounter in real life and I compliment MB for conceiving this. Why shooting from 25 M is not practical? It is true that most SD encounters may take place at much shorter distances but they may take place at a longer distance as well and one must therefore train for it. I feel convinced about it because twice I had to fire in SD and both times, it was around 25 yard or more distance (Luckily, both parties missed their targets :mrgreen: )

So in my view, we should have shooting from long, medium as well as short distances... but we can have views of other members as well. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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I think there is not much to change in this drill at this stage. The first change that I would think of, at a slightly later stage, would be shooting on the move, at targets placed between 5-12mtrs. Rest, I think all is ok, including shooting under cover, changing mags under cover, etc. Would like to do it in reverse as well, 15mtrs first, then 10, then 25mtrs etc. and add a target placed at 40-50mtrs for just one shot! But that is after I get all shots on target, and time of about 30s in this drill!

What we have changed in this drill is that the targets are placed at 10mtrs apart, instead of 10ft apart, as initially suggested by MB bro. 10ft was too less actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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Wow wow wow
Sorry guys I was out for few days and you guys have lot of good practice during this time. Great job done :text-bravo:
And also thanks a lot for naming the drill as Buster Drill :handgestures-salute:

I do not get much chance to practice in these days but I practice the drill once on friends farm. I was not having proper targets with me so I made targets of paper and draw a 8" circle to make the balck area. This time it was better in time but not much better in score. My time was 45 s but from 25 m I score 15, from 15 m I score 12 and from 10 m I score 15. Total points 52. Not much different from last time :(

I can see that your timings are better than me. I will practice more to decrease timings. But I agree with KBW suggestions abut mag loading behind cover and not when moving. About the target, my point of view was to keep drill very simple. I did not have targets but I used a simple paper to make this target and carry out drill on my fiends farm. If there was some special target than it was difficult for me to make that target.

There is no input from Atiqmassan. I am waiting for his input on this drill. I will request Atiq bhai to give his input :)

regards

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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i did not know how to embed youtube videos, so please have a look at this link the shooters details are as below.



Iain Harrison
Biography

Harrison was born in the United Kingdom. He served as a re-con platoon commander for the British Army. He moved to the United States and started working as a construction manager in Sherwood, Oregon while pursuing competitive shooting.
In 2009, Harrison finished second in Trooper Class in the 2009 MGM Ironman multi-gun competition. Being an amateur gunsmith, the guns he used during the competition were made by himself.
Top Shot
In 2010, Harrison appeared in the first season of History Channel's marksmen competition Top Shot. During the first half of the competition, Harrison competed as part of the Blue Team. His team ended up winning six challenges, and Harrison was only nominated for elimination once during that period. During the final half of the competition, Harrison won the last two individual challenges before the final. In the finale, he beat Chris Cerino to win the competition as well as $100,000.
Harrison has since made three appearances on the show as a weapons trainer. His first appearance after winning was on the tenth episode of the second season of the show. During one episode of the third season of the show, Harrison appeared with Season 2 winner, Chris Reed, serving as honorary team captains of the two current Blue and Red teams for one of the challenges. A $5,000 donation was made to a charity selected by the captain of the winning team, and Harrison chose the Wounded Warrior Project. However, his team lost to Chris Reed's Red team. He appeared again as a trainer during the fourth season.

Mod Edit: Embedding done :)

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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Thanx to the mods.

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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I will bring the silhouette targets tomorrow on the range. Drills for me are practice for a specific skill and it means repetition. Breaking all the specific skills and doing them slowly in the first run.
I had posted a drill that had almost everything that i could think of, toughest is the target transition because of the mental aspect and in it forcing the eye focus to remain the same. Gave me a headache only because i didn't have the practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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Welcome back Atiq sahib, we missed your comments. :)

Please do let us know about the details of the drill that you carry out tomorrow. Also, your view on the Buster Drill that members are carrying out nowadays.

regards

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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We worked on the dry fire practice a LOT and it was basically doing every little nitty gritty thing in slow motion. He explained the single shot with some of the details in almost 10 minutes of lecture.

Then it was something short of a PhD lecture in one go... i.e. One of the most awesome details that i was interested and explained to me was the eye focus and how to force it to keep it steady and see the target in peripheral vision.

Next he went through all the basics with emphasis on each and every detail and included were the floating of the gun rather than jamming it in place.

Dry fire practice with serious emphasis on trigger pull and reaction time was done.. I made soo many mistakes that it seemed impossible.. if i concentrated on trigger pull then reaction time was too late and if i concentrated on reaction time then trigger pull was seriously bad (included flinching and improper grip pressure). It is a long long process..

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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MythBuster wrote:
omkhan wrote:
Just 1 thing though that the buster drill seems too impractical.
@omkhan
Sir there could be hundreds of different type of drills and buster drill is just one of them. But why do you feel that it is too impractical?

omkhan wrote:
@MB, I agree there could be a 1000 of scenarios though IMO the drill should be that is both interesting and closer to the real SD scenarios.

I was just communicating my thoughts , nothing to criticize. According to FBI stats, most SD encounters take please within 21 feet i.e. 7 yards max. Even in the 2 SD/HD scenarios which I encountered the distance in 1 was almost 14 ft. i.e. 5 yards, and in the other 1 it was hardly 2-3 yards. I am not saying that there cant be a situation to shoot from 25 meters but its highly unlikely and uncommon. Moreover, I don't know any one here who keeps loose bullets with him so that is why i said this seems a bit impractical. These are just my thoughts , management may decide whatever it seems ok. :)

Furrukh wrote:
Ok here are my 2 cents. I do not mean to critisize any drill but in my opinion carrying 3 rounds in a mag just doesn't make any sense and shooting from 25m is more of the precission type. In real life we're more likely to carry more rounds in our mag that is why we have 15 plus rounds mags. If we can have a drill whith the mozambique drill it would be fun, something on the lines of what omkhan mentioned....

I have quoted posts from TGF Competition thread because it was not related there. We can discuss it here.

I will give the reasons and factors which were in my mind when I proposed this buster drill. My purpose is not to defend this drill, just give reason that why something was kept like that. I understand there could be numerous practical shooting drill meeting different requirements and criteria. Also there is no compulsion on keeping this drill like this and we can always change it if we want :)

1. The main purpose while designing this drill was economy and easy arrangement on range. It was to be something which is cheap for shooter and also did not require any elaborate arrangement at the range. Than different practical aspects which I had experienced in my life during SD encounters and during range practice and also different aspects from the internet were incorporated in the drill to make it practical, easy arrangement and cheap.

2. First observation is on distance that it should be from 3-5 meter because most SD encounters take place at this distance. It is correct that most SD encounters take place at short distance but not all. FBI study is regarding US which is a different place and it does not fully apply in Pakistan in my view. In US law and order situation in village and areas outside cities is very good whereas in Pakistan it is very bad. In US a large no of crime take place in railway tubes which is very congested place. In Pakistan there are no tubes but SD encounters in cities like Karachi and Lahore are mostly from short distance but no always. Out of three SD encnounters where I had to fire to save my life, two were in village area and shooting distance was 25 m or more. One of them was a long encounter and my enemies had blocked our way. I had to reload my TT mags because I shot all round in the mag and find my way out while firing from 30-35 m or may be more. what I want to say is that practicing from 15 and 25 m is not impractical though it do not happen very often. Moreover, if you practice from 25 and 15 m than you can shoot at 5 meter with your eyes closed. But if you have practiced from 5 m only than you may not be able to engage a man size target at 25 m, even more difficult at night. However, if members feel that it is wastage of time and effort to train from 25 m and 15 m than we can discuss and take that thing out of this drill.

3. Second obsn is on target. I fully agree that TGF precision shooting target is not the proper target for this kind of drill but I kept that target because it is there with every member. Proper man shape or silhouette target may not be available to every member. So it was the easy availability of target. If members can find silhouette targets easily than it will be a better target for this drill.

4. Third observation is on loading the mags during the drill. It is true that in most short SD encounters in cities when a person is carrying two full mags he will not need to reload but not always. People in Pakistan will have SD encounters outside cities also where the space is open and shooting is many times from longer distance. Also in a long encounters one may have to reload his mags. I had to reload my mags in one encounter thank God we had spare bullets. So its a good skill to have in SD and not a wastage of time in my view. However, members can take this step out if they feel that loading practice is a impractical thing.

This was just to give the ratio the rationale for having these things in buster drill. I dont insist that this drill should be followed in same manner in practice or in TGF shooting competition. I don't even insist that this drill should be part of TGF competition if there is some better drill which can be included. :)

regards.

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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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25m distance and ammo in pocket is impractical! (one should practice but not for competition IMHO)
Range from 5yards to 15yards max!
Or use two types of drills long and short range


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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a_talpur bro
Please read the post by MythBuster just before your's.


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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I could not go through all the posts.
just my opinion, bro!
Defensive Cover could be used for the ammo reloading part in the drill


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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There should be atleast two practical shooting drills in the competition


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 Post subject: Re: Practical Shooting Drills

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@ talpur, please tell why distance should be between 5 & 15 m? thanks.

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