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 Post subject: Practical Shooting Drills

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AOA all members

I have been reading about IPSC in different threads on TGF and also on internet. But I find that at no place all rules and stages of IPSC are given in one thread and also how much ammo is needed and which type of ammo is to be used and the range and gear etc. I bits and pieces the information is given at many places but not in one place in comprehensive form. I have got most of the information from internet about stages and ammo but there are many questions for which I think we need discussion. after this discussion my aim is to findout that is it a suitable competition for Pakistani shooter? what are its advantages and disadvantages so that in end, we can decided that whether we should adopt IPSC or otherwise.

I request input from senior members like atiqmassan and specially, members from outside Pakistan like from USA and Phillippines where IPSC is very common. Thanks :handgestures-salute:

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Last edited by MythBuster on Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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I think the best person to respond to this would be AtiqMassan bro.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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MythBuster wrote:
AOA all members

.... But I find that at no place all rules and stages of IPSC are given in one thread and also how much ammo is needed and which type of ammo is to be used and the range and gear etc.

... after this discussion my aim is to find out that is it a suitable competition for Pakistani shooter?

..what are its advantages and disadvantages so that in end, we can decided that whether we should adopt IPSC or otherwise.
...


The rules of IPSC can be downloaded from the http://ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf site..

Ammo needed is all you can buy and quadruple it.. ahem ahem.. I mean.. the more you shoot the better you get. The things like target transition and Double taps at the same time take considerable learning. The FIRST rule for me that i learned the hard way was HAVE some good shooter besides you so that Fundamentals are correct; which translates to nice learning curve. If you are in karachi visit the ASCC and meet the regular shooters there. Concentrate on three things as a starter 1) Grip. 2) Trigger press and 3) correct aiming.

The next step would be things like tighter groups when firing faster and faster shots, shot calling and recoil handling.

The best ammo that i have found yet is the cz-75 brand with NO FTE or FTF in over 1100 rounds. Not a violent round yet leaves very little fouling in barrel and that is at the rate of rs 18. DONT buy P.G brand or the BBF and read this viewtopic.php?f=42&t=2023 WHY it is so.

The amount of ammo is HUGE because of the drills to practice all the technical stuff and average is almost 300 rounds for me per visit and this can sometimes cross or come down to even 100 rounds only.. Keep your ideal amount to 350 rounds, with a good holster that STICKS hard to your body and keeps the gun firm search for the plastics.. like Fobus holsters or other good brand as starter and plastics mag pouch and a P-Cap with ear plugs and that's all. The clubs where you will go will usually have someone with a timer.. without it Practical shooting cannot happen. A software is being developed at this time.. I was testing today but it had many issues related to the sensitivity of shot sound. Will update on this asap. This isn't a big issue at the outset so don't worry.

This is the best competition sport and absolutely suitable for the Pakistan as MOST of the people think that aerial firing makes them the best shooters of the world... and when they come to a range and shoot their whole world becomes dark and situation is so grim that they don't know how to grip, press trigger, aim, control recoil and hit a target at just 5 meters. Heck i have even seen someone shoot the bast of target at the 5 meter range; and he thought he was going to be the BEST shooter undoubtedly. His ego was so severely hurt that he bowed his head and promised that he will never fire an aerial shot ever and brag about it. People in Pakistan need some breathing space to have their mind set straight from the misconceptions and the prevalent attitude they see and encounter. Example, I got a friend who used to tell his 9 year old was a problem child and was irresponsible and a bit afraid of things and was a confused chap. so we brought him to shooting and in just one day.. all was solved. IMHO this is what makes a human realize the reality and see that what they see in movies is exactly opposite. This reality check nurtures the feeling of being the most law abiding citizen and personally I have yet to encounter an active and apt shooter do lawlessness such as even break a Traffic Signal .. every one does it.. Right.. but when i see someone STOP at a traffic signal i KNOW he is carrying a gun. To give people the sense of what it feels like to shoot and how GREAT is the feeling when you are acting according to law is what is needed to set the society around us on the straight path. I have yet to encounter ONE active shooter who uses foul language, is angry at slightest flur/ barrage of words (read swearing words), is too apt to start a fight as most ppl who carry gun always try to find a way to END the issue by taking the damage themselves and letting the other person win. More over the shooters are by FAR the best people to converse with, True gentlemen in all respects; if you don't believe me.. have a BBQ in wilderness and SEE what happens, YOU wont want to come back home; at least that is the case with me.

IPSC is basically combat hand gunning techniques turned into a sport and now nothing is related to combat.. BTW: this also led to creation of IDPA because IPSC became too much of a fiction and had nothing to do with defensive and offensive shooting. IPSC is like olympics of Pistol shooting.. if you are drowning you will want to be a olympics swimmer. Opting for IPSC is exactly like elevating from racing on roads to going to a race track and doing racing there; and when you are back on the road you tend to drive absolutely by the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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MythBuster start with a good yet mediocre gun.. such as Canik55 L120, C100, CZ999, NP22/34 or any clone of CZ-75 and have a good holster. The difference of price of a good gun.. use that to buy local ammo and learn the proper shooting techniques. THEN when you are good and feel yourself that the gun seems to hinder you in learning more that is when you should sell your well worked up gun and go into CZ family or the SIG or Glocks/ Steyr.
This change of gun should take about a year or about 15000 rounds of concentrated shooting efforts while maintaining a log of your range sessions/ drill sets done.
The more you shoot the better confidence you will have and the lesser prone you will be when you have to take the gun out if your are NOT at the range. As you go on ahead and start shooting moving targets and shooting targets while moving; it will surely blow you away at the awe it poses; when you overcome that portion of learning then you will feel such confidence that in real life you will stand upto ANY challenge and say if no one can then I CAN DO IT and i WILL do it. This changes all the factors of life, the serenity and the peace that you will come to with this feeling is going to make you a PEER/Murshid for your own self. I mean you will start to believe in your own self and will ONLY work to out smart your own self, not caring about other people and what they think... YOU will be a KING in your own might, not budged by any one..

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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@atiqmassan
Sir, thanks for a detailed reply :handgestures-salute:

I am a reasonably good firer and shooting since the last 15 years but I have mostly shot precision shooting style. I will use my CZ shadow for this event if I do it but I have many other good quality guns also including NP22 and Baikal Viking and few other. I have the other needed gear with me also.

But after reading you reply it looks that the ammo is going to be biggest problem. I need 15000 rounds in one year and 300 rounds per visit :o :angry-banghead: :violence-shootself:

This will mean that I need to spend 0.75 million rupee every year on ammo if i want to do IPSC? That is about 62500 per month :violence-shootself:

Write now, I shoot about 50-75 rounds per month which is 2500-3750 rupee per month or 30-45 k per year. Regarding using local ammo of CZ 75 till the time the thing quoted below is not clarified, I will not use CZ 75 ammo also

KBW wrote:
Why I am time and again talking about CZ75 and other ammo which are performing well. I am too eager to check the primer type and the bullet. If these ammos are also using a free floating anvil than despite their good performance, ITS A BIG NO. If they are using an undersized bullet than again IT'S A BIG NO. And if they are using a proper primer (please see ammo report of 325 Chinese), ie, a berdan primer without disturbing the case by drilling a central hole through it or reusing the anvils of fired boxer primers of branded company ammos than it's ok and we can talk further. Also, if they are using a correct size bullet, ie, .355" instead of .348 than we can explore further. BUT IF THEY ARE NOT DOING ANY OF THE ABOVE TWO THINGS THAN I WILL STRONGLY NOT RECOMMEND THESE AMMOS, NOT MATTER HOW GOOD THEY SHOOT AT THE RANGE. But we will only know about it when these ammos are properly inspected using proper instruments.


But even if we come to know that CZ 75 ammo is safe to shoot, even than the expenditure will be 270000 which is too much and about 7-9 times more than my current expenditure. I am not sure that i will be able to afford it, may be not.

Does this mean that IPSC is only for very rich people. Common people like me can never have enough money to buy ammo for IPSC and so no IPSC for us. As regards your comment about being master of ownself than it can be done by shooting about 100 rounds per month on range regularly. I may be wrong but this is what I think.

Now my question is that is IPSC a practical thing in Pakistan?? Is there any other way?

Again, thanks a lot for your comprehensive reply. :handgestures-salute:

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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MythBuster wrote:
@atiqmassan
I am a reasonably good firer and shooting since the last 15 years but I have mostly shot precision shooting style. I will use my CZ shadow for this event if I do it but I have many other good quality guns also including NP22 and Baikal Viking and few other. I have the other needed gear with me also.


Brother Precision shooting style and the IPSC are two different games altogether, same as oranges are better or apples. If You have Shadow and NP 22 or likes of cz-75 Clone then you DONT need to go any further as far as equipment is needed. All you have to do is get into the IPSC in a TIMED event and you will surely know what it feels like when there is a timer and multiple targets wreaking havoc on your front sight.. This is what happened with me first time.. my pistol didn't seem to have the front sight..

MythBuster wrote:
But even if we come to know that CZ 75 ammo is safe to shoot, even than the expenditure will be 270000 which is too much and about 7-9 times more than my current expenditure. I am not sure that i will be able to afford it, may be not.
Does this mean that IPSC is only for very rich people. Common people like me can never have enough money to buy ammo for IPSC and so no IPSC for us. As regards your comment about being master of ownself than it can be done by shooting about 100 rounds per month on range regularly. I may be wrong but this is what I think.

Now my question is that is IPSC a practical thing in Pakistan?? Is there any other way?


Brother your calculation is done with the best bullets in the best pistol in sort of a utpoian scenario. You do have a NP22 and you CAN shoot the local brand ammo. WILL you think that the damage to NP22 is worth the skill that you will learn?
IPSC doesn't need to be expensive, but that is dependent to your the liking. if you shoot S&B at 60 rs a pop then you will be doing injustice to your self. The best practice would be to use a mediocre gun with local ammo that is reliable to learn the things that are not related to Trigger. When you want to learn trigger switch to Shadow for a few shots. My calculation of 300 shots every week is "IF" you want to become a GM for the sport of it. If you take average of say.. 200 shots at 17 rs a pop local reliable ammo.. it takes cost to 3400 rs. Which is the same as what you shoot right now in a month. Twice a month means doubling your current expenditure. Whereas when you will start the IPSC you will note that static shooting is no where near the madness that instills in the mind when targets sway and front sight vanishes let alone the feel of hands sweating and the ground shaky. Brother shooting static is awesome as it tests the motor skills, but what about the mindset and the physical skills? they certainly are lacking in target shooting. As far as becoming master of oneself is concerned with 100 rounds a month on static target cannot be compared to Practical shooting it would be injustice to both YOU and the sport as well. This confidence in your ability is good if you intend to use you ability at the range only but brother.. ONCE you have had a reality check of what happens on ground zero you will certainly miss the time when you had the chance to learn the technicalities of practical shooting. search "Combat Mindset" and "sheep sheepdog and wolf" and i hope you come close to what is intended. You posting this has opened up a pandora box that I was waiting to delve into.

This certainly is practical for Pakistan IMHO but a bit tighter for the budget conscious person; However this wasn't so for me at least, as all I had to do was STOP buying PEPSI and same with lesser dependance on the fast food with friends (read as trying to keep myself a bit reserved to learning proper shooting for my own self rather than eating the money in night and washing it away in the morning). The difference from this change that I got was 200 bullets every alternate week. You will have to make certain sacrifice to get something.. this change as above was mine. I am also a common person and your calculation of 270000 is almost my whole years salary less a month maybe, yet I am at home with how and what I do.

You see we don't realize that we are being driven by advertisement campaigns into doing things that we actually don't need in our life. KEEP IT SIMPLE and use all your efforts to have a life and learn the things that you may be needing. This has worked for me perfectly and my health is a LOT better than before; ON top of it all i seem to have more time at my hands as well as budget has turned in the other direction. PHEW!! finally having a HUGE breath of fresh air after years.

ALL IS DUE TO SHOOTING DISCIPLINE, I OWE MY LIFE TO MY PISTOL FOR LETTING ME LIVE IT PROPERLY.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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@attiqmassan
Sir, thanks again for your time and comprehensive reply. But i think there are some issues which need more discussion.

atiqmassan wrote:
Brother your calculation is done with the best bullets in the best pistol in sort of a utpoian scenario. You do have a NP22 and you CAN shoot the local brand ammo. WILL you think that the damage to NP22 is worth the skill that you will learn?
Sir, I am not professional shooter and I don't have plans to become a professional shooter. I shoot for pleasure and in that, shooting with good gun and good ammo is important. I am not convinced that I should shoot low quality dangerous ammo with my cheapest gun? What pleasure I will get from it? I love shooting my Shadow and CZ 75B and that is why I spend so much money on it. I have an old NP22 but I don't shoot it too much now because it is no pleasure as compared to Shadow. And I will not use CZ 75 or any local ammo till the time it properly tested by someone who know the ammos. So if I decide not to shoot local ammo because it is dangerous and inconsistent than IPSC is very very expensive. I hope you understand my concern. :)

As regards special pleasure of IPSC drills, I know it is there. But it can differ from person to person and someone else may enjoy precision shooting more. I am not a precision shooting guy also I just shoot for pleasure and shoot on paper target and sometimes do my own drill at night, from a moving car, while moving or walking as per requirement. But I agree that IPSC has its own joy and pleasure.

Right now, it looks to me that it can only be practiced by rich people or someone who has support of some department like Army, Wapda etc. And about reducing other expenditures in life just to save money for ammo, I think its not correct. Other things are also important and have their own place.

I wish there could be some cheaper way of enjoying this sport :(

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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Mythbuster, IPSC though a very interesting idea, is not exactly designed for the Pakistan market, considering our economy. but u can design your own drills to practice. practice shooting on the move or shooting moving targets. IPSC is about practical shooting and is more focused towards drill that might prove more practical in real life, not saying that it is by any means defensive shooting. but it will be quiet close to IPSC shooting only not costing you so many bullets. we try shooting 2-3 targets while moving, while double tapping on the targets. six rounds, in one drill...even if we repeat the drill 6 times, we only end up using 36 bullets in one session.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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fahad khalid wrote:
Mythbuster, IPSC though a very interesting idea, is not exactly designed for the Pakistan market, considering our economy. but u can design your own drills to practice. practice shooting on the move or shooting moving targets. IPSC is about practical shooting and is more focused towards drill that might prove more practical in real life, not saying that it is by any means defensive shooting. but it will be quiet close to IPSC shooting only not costing you so many bullets. we try shooting 2-3 targets while moving, while double tapping on the targets. six rounds, in one drill...even if we repeat the drill 6 times, we only end up using 36 bullets in one session.
That is more practical. In my view, shooting 36 or 40 rounds is more practical and one can afford it also because I am not going to shoot local ammo in my guns. In my view, do we need to follow 200 rounds drills? I think no because we are not taking part in some IPSC competition. We can give it some other name what we like and enjoy practical shooting. We can make our own drills. How about it?? :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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Brother.. I dont see any reason why you cannot take pleasure in shooting.. NO ONE is a professional shooter.. we all just LOVE it soo much that we dont have any thing better in mind.. so all we do is shoot. our passion has become our hobby..
It is your choice to prefer Pepsi and fast food over your hobby/ passion, your choice is yours and I hope you love what you do .. for me my ONLY passion is shooting sports. I know it is expensive but that is what it is all about. I just test my self according to what i can suppress and what i achieve. ALL my friends do a chanda (collective spending) once and month.. this idea has made things better for me and for them as well. Rearranging your life style isnt that hard.. but if you love your life style and love your shooting style more then khush raho yaar..
for me i dont care about cost.. i have to meet it one way or other but i will shoot as much as i can.. whenever i can.. how ever i can.

What FK bro has said is also a good option.
It may seem odd to you but when you DO practice live fire in the drills at night then all will change drastically. Practice is not about being static it is always about doing something that is the most hardest for you to do. The drill set for practice has something in it.. i mean every drill is designed for specific thing to practice and as you practice each and everything it will be put to test with the classifier stages. The stages IPSC ppl do internationally has some wisdom behind it .. mainly because it involves the degree of difficulty. i.e from level I to level V.

So if you find your own created stages make it more fun then plz do practice it..as much as you can but also try the harder stuff as well.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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This is exactly what i had in mind when i posted above. As much as i hold back on my urges, i cannot spend 0.75 million a year on shooting. There are alot of other factors involved in promoting a sports like IPSC in our country. Unless and untill someone can come up with a way to reload bullets, and cost of weapons and accessories comes down, we cannot enjoy something like IPSC to its fullest. However yes we can design our own stages, with an affordable round count. Its like back in our childhood whenever we did not have a large place to play cricket we designed a "one tip cricket" format.
IPSC is a large platform, so just pick up whatever suits your comfort level. Infact as the level of active members grow TGF management can come up with rules and stages for a Practical shoot derived from the basics of IPSC.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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Better delve into the IDPA then, because it uses more so the defensive situations rather than the RACING IPSC conditions. the round count at max is 12 rounds per stage and in some just 4 rounds fired. I have been thinking about this after MythBuster's thread. However since IPSC takes the shooting to a extreme level personally will keep on pursuing it to learn the technicalities with the info I have in hand.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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Interesting discussion.

There is no doubt IPSC as well as IDPA style of shooting have their own charm and training value. However, due to huge financial expenses and elaborate range arrangements required for IPSC, I don't think it is a suitable sport for Pakistan at the moment, IF the rules / stages of these competitive sport are to be followed in letter and spirit. My personal view on that is that unless Pakistan Rifle Association gets seriously and intimately involved in it and there are departments / organisations like Army, Navy, WAPDA, BRA, PRA, SRA etc who are willing to fully fund the sport / shooter, THE IDEA OF IPSC / IDPA will stay a dream in Pakistan.

You can not promote a sport by just starting it at a small club level with few people taking part in it. It has to be a part of National Championship otherwise it will stay restricted to few people only. Now, we have certain matches related to pistol, rifle and shotgun shooting in our National Games. IPSC or IDPA is not a part of that.

Now coming to MythBuster and Fahad Khalid's point of enjoying this sport without spending a huge amount of money on it. Atiqmassan brother is very passionate about this sport and is willing to curtail other expenditures of his life in order to generate enough funds for it. It's perfectly fine, however, someone else may not be that passionate and may have other priorities. At the same time, that guy may be fascinated with this sport to some extent and may like to take part in it if economically / administratively feasible. SO, instead of telling that guy that either you follow IPSC / IDPA in true letter and spirit or forget about it, one may devise some drills which neither require a huge financial expenditure nor very elaborate range set up. These drills may be given some other name and the name of IPSC / IDPA may not be used. This is how we can encourage the people to take part in this sport.

We also have to shun this idea that if one has to learn about practical shooting under stressful conditions involving physical movement / exertion than IPSC / IDPA is the only way. It is just one of the hundreds of ways and certainly not the best one. Over the period of time, it has become a sport in which a set drills are to followed like a ritual. Therefore, we should not confuse SD training involving practical scenarios with IPSC. I have been doing various drills over the years that (in my view) trained me for handling a practical situation. All of them had nothing to do with IPSC and in fact at that time, I did not even know that there is something like IPSC. So one can enjoy practical scenario based shooting without getting into IPSC. For that we need to devise drills that are practical, doable and cost effective. And who can do it better than Atiq Massan sahib. With his intimate knowledge of IPSC, he could be very prudent provided he takes out "IPSC" from his mind for the time being and remains focused on "scenario based practical shooting drills" which are cost effective and easy to manage. Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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KBW wrote:
My personal view on that is that unless Pakistan Rifle Association gets seriously and intimately involved in it and there are departments / organisations like Army, Navy, WAPDA, BRA, PRA, SRA etc who are willing to fully fund the sport / shooter, THE IDEA OF IPSC / IDPA will stay a dream in Pakistan.

You can not promote a sport by just starting it at a small club level with few people taking part in it. It has to be a part of National Championship otherwise it will stay restricted to few people only.


KBW wrote:
We also have to shun this idea that if one has to learn about practical shooting under stressful conditions involving physical movement / exertion than IPSC / IDPA is the only way. It is just one of the hundreds of ways and certainly not the best one. Over the period of time, it has become a sport in which a set drills are to followed like a ritual. Therefore, we should not confuse SD training involving practical scenarios with IPSC.


Very thorough inputs KBW sb.

The underlined sentence above, is the crux of the situation. Atiq Massan bro is passionate about this sport, while others, in my understanding, only want to be capable of practical shooting with SD perspective in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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+1 KBW, I have some drills that are SD specific and they require nothing.. NO COST to the shooter and the targets at the range are all that is needed.

The cost is completely being driven off the shelf by producing all the things necessary at HOME and will probably be sold at cost to cost; here the pointing is towards the timer which is the ONLY accessory needed for a person.

Secondly I feel the basics of pistol shooting in IPSC are lacking as NO ONE knows them and unless a person takes some time learning them.. then and only then the SD and other things become easier. an example would be target transition. NEVER seen anyone practicing it. The eye co-ordination and movement, recoil control and grip, double tap and last is the reload. IF just this much portion is delved into then a LOT of things start to become clear.

The drills can be self made and set pattern of dills is not concrete. We can setup drills that test the Self defense related shooting skills rather than target shooting skills.

For me going into this sport has been the toughest thing as I had to sell some things to get myself straight at it; even became afraid of it that maybe taking too much of a risk. I was away from IPSC for a long time but now slowly it is paying off from the learning curve that i see in my own self. Doing the easy thing is not the norm.. but the hardest thing is the most important.. the one that you DON'T like to do. The SD scenario based things though may seem simple but learning the technicalities such as FAST target transition may be important; which may be available in IPSC. I feel IPSC is the sheer technical side of pistol shooting and HOW you use that skill is SD. SD also includes the combat mindset as well which is also the MOST important factor and cannot be stressed more. The nifty little details in IPSC taught me a LOT, and the amount of things that are involved are so many that unless a person really gets to know them he cannot realise that they are there. Why do Dedicated Special services Group of military and Police exist. What is so special in their way of shooting?? what do they learn??

BTW: In a class of Chris Costa, the Navy seal team members were beaten by the IPSC people in almost all the shooting events, both in time and A score hits. I place and end my arguments here.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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KBW wrote:
Interesting discussion.

... unless Pakistan Rifle Association gets seriously and intimately involved in it and there are departments / organisations like Army, Navy, WAPDA, BRA, PRA, SRA etc who are willing to fully fund the sport / shooter, THE IDEA OF IPSC / IDPA will stay a dream in Pakistan.....


KBW Brother just wait a month of so.. this above words of yours.. I am SURE you will take back. I had this in mind but unless something concrete comes out can's say the details of it.

KBW wrote:
...someone else may not be that passionate and may have other priorities. At the same time, that guy may be fascinated with this sport to some extent and may like to take part in it if economically / administratively feasible. SO, instead of telling that guy that either you follow IPSC / IDPA in true letter and spirit or forget about it, one may devise some drills which neither require a huge financial expenditure nor very elaborate range set up. These drills may be given some other name and the name of IPSC / IDPA may not be used. This is how we can encourage the people to take part in this sport.


True point taken, will devise something out of this advice. The people when coming to the range don't realize what the difference is between Aerial firing and target firing. Same is the case of difference between target firing and IPSC/ IDPA. I will make some easier drills with just target transition and awkward position merged with maximum of 6 shots only on this coming Sunday at the ASCC. With sole purpose of getting feedback and what people want to do and what they felt about that ONE drill only.

KBW wrote:
We also have to shun this idea that if one has to learn about practical shooting under stressful conditions involving physical movement / exertion than IPSC / IDPA is the only way.......

With his intimate knowledge of IPSC, he could be very prudent provided he takes out "IPSC" from his mind for the time being and remains focused on "scenario based practical shooting drills" which are cost effective and easy to manage...


I would quote from a book "Armed Response" by Massad Ayoob on page 134 second para that

"IDPA was formed because the IDPA founders felt that IPSC was going too hi-tech and was too 'competition' orientated, thereby no longer 'Practical.' IDPA was created with 'carry' issues in mind to make the sport more reflective of realistic defensicve situations. guns and holsters are limited to 'carry guns' with no compensators, red dot sights or competition modifications allowed. The stages are oriented towards protection scenarios such as holdups and attacks. Scoring is based more on shot placement than time, favoring better hits than speed.."

So there is always something that is there hidden wisdom behind the IDPA and IPSC. Once the basics are covered no need to want to become the GM of the sport.

an example.. "a police officer in US reached a crime scene where a known drug dealer was standing who went for his gun. the officer took out his gun and shot the BG twice in his chest and lowered the gun. BG with his gun shot the officer dead. The reason was the officer was TRAINED to lower the gun after two shots."

IMHO learn the basics of IPSC and IDPA and then practice the scenario that is best suiting you... nurture the combat mindset to save your life IF something happens.

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Last edited by atiqmassan on Fri May 25, 2012 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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atiqmassan wrote:
BTW: In a class of Chris Costa, the Navy seal team members were beaten by the IPSC people in almost all the shooting events, both in time and A score hits. I place and end my arguments here.

I would consider myself a sufficient shooter if I was half as good as navy seals! I don't think beating them is an SD requirement.
However, all credit to IPSC shooters.

atiqmassan wrote:
KBW wrote:
Interesting discussion.

... unless Pakistan Rifle Association gets seriously and intimately involved in it and there are departments / organisations like Army, Navy, WAPDA, BRA, PRA, SRA etc who are willing to fully fund the sport / shooter, THE IDEA OF IPSC / IDPA will stay a dream in Pakistan.....


KBW Brother just wait a month of so.. this above words of yours.. I am SURE you will take back. I had this in mind but unless something concrete comes out can's say the details of it.


Looking forward to the developments here.

@Atiq bro,
The point I feel that you have actually not truly 'accepted', in my view and what I have understood from above arguments, is not about the efficacy of IPSC (or IDPA), it is the cost side which is the biggest hurdle. If the cost cannot get into an affordable range, like 500 rounds/month at rs 10-12/round max max, it will be out of bounds for most shooters, almost all shooters, and hardly 2 or 3 would be still willing to persist. If it is higher than this, even myself( who probably shoots most amongst our group) would walk away from this sport. IPSC/IDPA is not everyone's passion, and cannot be. Not at such costs.

atiqmassan wrote:
IMHO learn the basics of IPSC and IDPA and then practice the scenario that is best suiting you... nurture the combat mindset to save your life IF something happens.

There is not countering this argument, but the cash/cost part is the biggest hurdle. If that cannot be reduced to the figures mentioned above, the IPSC (or IDPA) corner will unfortunately only be a (very) small minority.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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@ saif

I understand the cost portion the MOST because I have had to change my life style completely just for the sport of it.
If you shoot about 150 shots on one day at range at rs 20 a pop, the cost will be 6000 rs. Would it suffice Twice a MONTH (150 pops) but with a PROPER drill set?

It would be the same as shooting S&B 100 shots at 60 rs a pop in a month (with two range days of 50 pops). Only to see if you can do good target shooting.

I am of the school of thought that train properly in start and then practice according to the amount of money you can spend. I mean go for quality stuff and practice the tougher things which are the hardest to master.

Who ever wants to learn is welcomed with OPEN arms. I will do my best to cut the cost and help out in any manner possible for me.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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Very nice. So lets have something tangible which can be practiced on the range. A set of drills, may be 5 or 6 stages of 5-6 round each with overall expenditure not going above 30-36 rounds. :)

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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@atiqmassan, KBW, Fahad Khalid
Sir thanks a lot for comprehensive input. :handgestures-salute:

Now we wait for atiqmassan to devise some drills for us which have less ammo expenditure. :)

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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Drill has been designed, and includes four things. Draw, Sight alignment with gun push, target transition (covered in two shots), Then movement portion far end and reverse end non shooting hand side(covered in two shots), mandatory reload with proper techniques (no shots hehehe) kneeling behind barricade and shooting both sides (Two shots), getting up and thru a hole with body weight transfer i.e. awkward position (two double taps shots) and walking back and reverse first then far shot shooting hand side (two shots) last of all a 25 meter shot (two shots). total of 14 shots.

This I have tried to do most of the things that are difficult but have left the movement drill set and the double taps. Should I include then as well??

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Last edited by atiqmassan on Fri May 25, 2012 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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@Atiq bro
The setup seems good. If you add double taps, reduce some thing else.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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I just read Mike Seeklander's article on WHY competition shooting helps in real life scenarios.

Mike Seeklander wrote:
First, let’s set the record straight. I advocate using practical competitions and the training that goes with them in addition to regular law enforcement, military, or civilian self-defense training programs. Winning a gunfight is a combination of solid tactics, good manipulation skills, and an aggressive will to win the fight. Competing in a match will not train you; it will, however, validate your marksmanship and manipulation skills under stress.
Another belief is that practical shooting will teach someone tactics, which it won’t! It will test and validate the ability to perform on demand and get rounds on a given target very quickly, under stress. And all the good trainers I know agree that this is a good tactic! (Speaking of stress, more than one highly trained military operator has told me that they felt more stress before a match than in combat.) One key point: I strongly recommend that law enforcement and military operators shoot matches with their standard-issue gear and not use tricked-out racing equipment.

Skill: Competitive Application --> Combative Application

Weapon Deployment (draw): In every match I have shot, the first shot (hit) was critically important. In matches like the steel challenge, competitors who draw and “hit” faster than others have a serious advantage in the match. ---> Critically important here too. In our Tactical Handgun classes at the U.S. Shooting Academy, we emphasize over and over that statistically and realistically, the person who gets the first “hit” in a gunfight increases their chances of survival exponentially. In reactive gunfights (police officer reacting to a gun pulled on them), the draw and hit are even more important.

High-Speed Marksmanship The ability to shoot a quick first shot and then repeat shots accurately is incredibly important at any match. Any top shooter will tell you that speed combined with accuracy is the key. Once again there is a direct correlation. The saying goes, “Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.” But I would change it to, “Speed is fine, but accuracy at extremely high speed is final … faster!” Anyone who plans on fighting with a firearm will be that much better off with the ability to shoot accurately at high speed.

High-Speed Weapon Manipulation Practical shooters know that their ability to manipulate their gun to clear a malfunction or do any type of reload may make the difference between winning and losing a match. I don’t think there’s any argument that competitive shooters are the best on the planet at high-speed manipulation of a handgun or rifle. Would the ability to rapidly manipulate through a reload or malfunction under extreme stress be important during a fight? Absolutely! Think about it. If an officer or soldier must reload, or fix a malfunction, they are already in a fight … hence the incredible importance of using high-speed manipulation techniques to get the gun back in action.

Movement Top shooters separate themselves from the rest of the pack in their ability to move and flow effectively through stages. Even shooters who lack experience learn to move, shoot, and/or manipulate with relative skill after their first several matches. The best shooters spend a lot of time working on this critical area. Think about the average gunfight, if there is such a thing. How important is movement? It’s critical! How many fights are stationary in nature and don’t have some sort of dynamic movement involved? None that I have witnessed. Think about the incredible advantage the ability to move while placing solid hits on target would give someone during that life-or-death situation.

Information Processing Any competitive shooter will probably tell you that “information overload” has happened to them more than once during a stage at a match. We shooters call this a “mental meltdown” on a stage, but the reality is we have not trained our brain to process the visual and kinesthetic information we are receiving while under stress. The only way to learn this process is to experience it. The ability to process an extremely large amount of information coming from multiple senses while under extreme stress, plus at the same time manipulating and applying solid fundamentals of marksmanship (getting rounds on target): Are these important during a fight? You bet they are. Experienced operators have a proven incredible edge after they have been through numerous high-stress situations. They get extremely efficient at processing information and using it to make decisions quickly. This skill is critical and has been shown to be directly related to surviving in combat.

As you can see, skills honed to perfection and used in practical shooting are much the same skills that will help someone win a fight if they have to do so. If you have a correct understanding of what competitive matches can do for you and how you should use them to test your skills under stress, you will benefit from doing so.

Competitive pressure brings out the best in us. It drives us to excel and to increase and analyze our training with the intent to win. That drive to train harder and more often can and will increase skills to the point where the standard qualification that most officers have to pass will be a breeze. And remember, “correct design and perfect execution” of training sessions is the only true way to performance on demand!


This is exactly I LOOK at the Competition and how it effects the situation as we face it, MORE you are TRAINED in shooting competition the more fluently you will handly your firearm, in duress or stress situations you may become a bit slower but NOT that slow as if you had NEVER went for the competition shooting in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: IPSC in Pakistan!!

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@Saif
Double Tap added and the SD/ Scenario also slightly added; two more shots infusing a single shot to becoming a double tap and that too with awkward body position.. I feel that explaining this to the participants will be a very informative thing as it would open up a pandora box on the TGF over the things that will happen and most of the shooters will see the height of difficulty that they face and for some it would be relatively easy and vice versa.

I hope everyone will come armed with at least a piece of paper and a pen to take down their remarks at the end of their shoot. so that we can absolutely dissect the issues that he is facing.

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and this is when Atiq bhai?

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