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 Post subject: All About Telescopes

Marksman

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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:56 pm
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Location: Karachi/Multan, Pakistan
Dear All,

I am trying to venture out in the unknown!! i.e. regarding telescopes so wish me good luck!! :mrgreen:

Obviously I will be needing tons of support from our senior members especially KBW and Ghazi Sb!!

Please feel free to post on basics of how to buy one for your custom needs, how to install one, what is windage/elevation etc!!

I will start with a wikepedia definition of windage

In firearms parlance, windage refers to the side-to-side adjustment of a sight, used to change the horizontal component of the aiming point. (The up-down adjustment for the vertical component is the elevation.) It can also refer to the difference in diameter between the bore and the shot, especially in muskets and cannons.

Please contribute to make this thread come alive! as I have dried up my knowledge on telescopes!!


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Marksman

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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Lahore
Ghazi Sb is our resident authority on Telescopes and this thread would have to be graced by his presence for all of us to gain some knowledge over firearm optics.

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Master at Arms

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+1 RRS. Ghazi sahib is requested to take a class on telescopes. What we can learn from him is not available on internet :)

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Marksman

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@KBW, Sir the internet is not really a very credible source, you never know how unbiased the author is and also, the reviews are usually vague and heaped with technicallities that require a masters degree, majoring in physics and fire arms as a minor.
On the other hand Ghazi sb explains everything and goes to the depth that is needed to understand and not confuse
So Hats off to the maestro and a BIG request from him to grace this thread with his presence

Regards

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:00 pm
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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
I am so sorry I just saw your post.

In optics one gets what one pays for. Unfortunately there can not be a compromise on optics. Now it depends how you want to use your scope? Long Range Matches, Hunting Big Game or a casual outing for wild boar.

The Long Range matches are very expansive as you shoot at least 150 rds during and before a match and many more in practice , with todays prices it is quite a bit.
When you go a 1000 Km North taking a flight from Lahore to Isbd to Gilgit and hire a jeep , take a permit for Rs 150,000/- for a Himalayan Ibex;. or 80,000/- dollars for a Markhore you will not like to see your El Cheapo scope on the Rifle has fogged up or the cross hair is broken or it has been afflicted by a ghost and is shooting here and there but not on target.

The hunting expanses are so high that to invest in a quality scope is a very sensible and economic step, it will last years and years and will probably out last many rifles, ( I had a Leupold 2.5X 8 Vati X 111 ) for 25 years rigorous use I put it on Three 7mm Mag Rifles having literally worn out the barrels of the first two.

Go with a Schmidt & Bender, A Ziess, a Swarowski , a Leupold ( make sure it says made in USA ) or an economic option Nikon. There are a number of other names but I would not be caught dead with a scope other than any of the ones I mentioned. Period!

The scopes made in china are worthless and will let you down miserably, you don't want to climb a sharp mountain ridge huffing and puffing at the peril of your life and aim at a Trophy of a life time and miss.

Do not go for higher magnification than 8 or max 10, if you want to keep the cost low go for a fixed 4, or a fixed 6 for mountain game and never more. For Variables go with 1.5 X 6, or 2.5 X 8, or 3 X 12 etc There are super expansive models and there are medium priced models by the big names, take your pick never never buy a junk scope which is worth 40 dollars but being sold to you for Rs 20 to 30,000. The Brand names will be available between Rs 40000 to Rs 190,000/. Some times you can get an excellent used scope at half price, make sure the person you are buying from is reliable and the scope does not have any dings or burrs and not repaired etc. The brand name ones are actually at almost the same price you would buy in the US, these are more expansive in Europe and UK. A good scope is an investment for a life time and will give you service with trust and reliability for ever.

JU


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Master at Arms

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Very logical input Sir which is reflective of your experience. On this advice, I turned down offer of few great looking Made in China scopes in the past few days :)

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Marksman

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nice to see ghazi sb informative input.. literally raising a dead thread into a lively one .. thank you for that sir!!

Regarding optics I wanted to ask whether one would need expensive sights for all usage or is there some kind of application where one could use cheap sights? I have seen a lot of Chinese scopes on combat type guns [not going into their detail as PB]... are they suitable for that purpose? or just a waste of money!!


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Marksman

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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:01 pm
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Location: Lahore
Thank You Ghazi sb very valuable input and as always a very educational read.

As Phoenix your question goes... The cheap Chinese optics you are talking about on these undiscussables are usually not very useful but then again most of the people that put these on there arent really looking for quality, since there philosophy is spray and pray.

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Master at Arms

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Rana Rasal Saleh wrote:
The cheap Chinese optics you are talking about on these undiscussables are usually not very useful but then again most of the people that put these on there arent really looking for quality, since there philosophy is [b]spray and pray[/b].

And I don't think one needs a scope, either to SPRAY or to PRAY ;) :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Sharp Shooter

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@ GHAZI SB,

Sir, a Karachi dealer is offering these three rifle scopes in range of 65,000 to 75,000 PKR. The international prices range between UK Pound Sterling 550 to 690 (equal to PKR 75,000 to PKR 95,000)

Do you think these are suitable for .22 bolt action rifle?

Quote:
Zeiss Riflescope Duralyt 1.2 - 5 x 36

The lightweight all-rounder for daylight
Its wide field of view allows for quick and safe target acquisition at close range, i.e. when being on a driven hunt. The maximum 5x magnification makes the Duralyt 1.2 – 5 x 36 a lightweight all-rounder for hunting by day and a superior alternative to red
dot sights as it is more versatile.

Specifications:

Magnification: 1,2 x (4,7x)

Effective Lens Diameter: 18,7 mm (36,0 mm)

Exit Pupil Diameter: 16,0 mm (7,6 mm)

Twilight Factors: 3,4 (13,4)

Field of view at 100 m: 30,0 m (8,5 m)

Objective Viewing Angle : 17,1 ° (4,9 °)

Diopter Adjustment Range: +2 / -3 dpt

Eye Relief: 90 mm

Parallax-Free: 100 m

Square Adjustment Range at 100 m: 280 cm

Adjustment per Click at 100 m: 1 cm

Centre Tube Diameter: 30 mm

Eye Piece Tube Diameter: 42 mm

Objective Tube Diameter: 42 mm

Nitrogen Filling: yes

Water Resistance: 400 mbar

Functional Temperature Range: -25 / +50 °C

Length: 302 mm

Reticles (2nd image plane): 6

Weight: 470 g


Price: Rs. 66,750

Image




Zeiss Riflescope Duralyt 2-8x42

The compact all-rounder
The sleek and compact Duralyt 2 – 8 x 42 provides bright images in twilight and allows for accurate shooting even over distances exceeding 200 metres. It is as short as the Duralyt 1.2 – 5 x 36, and offers the optimum medium magnifi cation range. This is why the Duralyt 2 – 8 x 42 is preferred by experienced hunter when hunting in diffi cult terrain.

Specifications:

Magnification: 2 x (8 x)

Effective Lens Diameter: 32,5 mm (42,0 mm)

Exit Pupil Diameter: 16,0 mm (5,2 mm)

Twilight Factors: 5,7 (18,3)

Field of view at 100 m: 15,9 m (4,8 m)

Objective Viewing Angle : 9,1 ° (2,8 °)

Diopter Adjustment Range: +2 / -3 dpt

Eye Relief: 90 mm

Parallax-Free: 100 m

Square Adjustment Range at 100 m: 160 cm

Adjustment per Click at 100 m: 1 cm

Centre Tube Diameter: 30 mm

Eye Piece Tube Diameter: 42 mm

Objective Tube Diameter: 48 mm

Nitrogen Filling: yes

Water Resistance: 400 mbar

Functional Temperature Range: -25 / +50 °C

Length: 302 mm

Reticles (2nd image plane): 6

Weight: 475 g


Price: Rs. 70,000

Image




Zeiss Riflescope Duralyt 3-12x50

The lightweight riflescope
The Duralyt 3 – 12 x 50 is the perfect choice when shooting over long and medium distances. Featuring light-transmissive optics and an extremely wide magnification range, it fulfills all requirements when stand hunting by day or in twilight. At the same time, it is sleek, lightweight, and comfortable to carry – thus it is perfectly suitable for the lightweight rifle of a mountain hunter, but can also be used universally in the field.

Specifications:

Magnification: 3 x (12 x)

Effective Lens Diameter : 48,9 mm (50,0 mm)

Exit Pupil Diameter: 12,0 mm (3,0 mm)

Twilight Factors: 8,5 (24,5)

Field of view at 100 m: 11,0 m (3,2 m)

Objective Viewing Angle : 6,3 ° (1,8 °)

Diopter Adjustment Range: +2 / -3 dpt

Eye Relief: 90 mm

Parallax-Free: 100 m

Square Adjustment Range at 100 m: 110 cm

Adjustment per Click at 100 m: 1 cm

Centre Tube Diameter: 30 mm

Eye Piece Tube Diameter: 42 mm

Objective Tube Diameter: 56 mm

Nitrogen Filling: yes

Water Resistance: 400 mbar

Functional Temperature Range: -25 / +50 °C

Length: 347 mm

Reticles (2nd image plane): 6

Weight: 590 g


Price: Rs. 73,500

Image


Link to dealers' sale thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=461


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

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Phoenix wrote:
nice to see ghazi sb informative input.. literally raising a dead thread into a lively one .. thank you for that sir!!

Regarding optics I wanted to ask whether one would need expensive sights for all usage or is there some kind of application where one could use cheap sights? I have seen a lot of Chinese scopes on combat type guns [not going into their detail as PB]... are they suitable for that purpose? or just a waste of money!!


It is better to stay with iron sights than to go for a cheap scope.A cheapo scope has no use even on a .22, although because of lack of recoil it could last for some time but the main problem is zeroing it , retaining zero and parrallex etc


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

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These Ziess models are very new to me , these are being offered at a fraction of the price models I know about like the Diavari and the Victory, Conquest model is at almost the same price but these model names I have not heard or seen earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Regional Ambassador - Multan Chapter

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@ Ghazi sb, keeping your experience in mind is it possible for you to guide us (newbies like myself) to optimum magnification as per caliber.

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

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There is a saying by old experienced hunters " you can always tell a green horn by the size of his knife "
In my ( warped mind ) it is like some one wanting to compensate for his weakness (less endowment by the Almighty) with a large knife.
It is pretty much the same with scopes. The best quality scopes are so good that they last for a life time and are usually gaurenteed for 30 years or a life time. No how can they sell more scopes and to whom??

So In my humble opinion the buyers targetted by scope makers are the Yuppies ( Young Successful enterpreneurs ) with lots of money and little experience.
They have the more the merrier approach and want the most expansive and largest magnification, without knowing that high magnification has specific use, advantages and disadvantages.

For dangerous game you need the maximum field of view, relative brightness, twilight factor, max exit pupil, max eye relief and dependability. You can only get these qualities in the lowest magnification. For example a fixed 2, or 4 power. If you want a zoom then 1.5 to 5 or 6 is very versatile as it can be used from a very short distance to long range.

For long range mountain hunting fixed 6 or a variable of 3X 9 or 2.5 x 10 or a 3 X 12 is good. We do not have Varmint hunting where a 4 X 14 or 6 x 24 could be used.
Have you ever wondered why worlds top Sniper scopes are 6 magnification ?? more often than not these would be fixed 6.

The Variables can change the zeroe when magnification is changed, the parrallex would be much greater in a higher power than 6 specially in a variable, the variable is more vulnerable to extreme weather.

Higher than 8 x a rifle appears to wobble a lot and very difficult to hold steady without a solid rest which may not be available during hunting, a higher magnification scope has higher problem of parallex, , it will have lesser eye relief, it would have a smaller exit pupil, it will have lesser relative brightness and it will have reduced field of view ( very important for close/ running shots )
You will observe you have to make compromises. A higher magnification does not make a more accurate or good shot.
I think now it would be clear why we pay so much for a best quality Rifle scope.
The decision is now upto you.
When you want to use a scope for dangerous game including wild boar at very short range and low light stay with not more than 1.5 to 2; when hunting Ibex, Urial sheep and markhore a magnification of between 6 to 10 is ideal.
The latest and most expansive ones over come some of the weaknesses to some extent are really worth the money.
By the best suitable to meet your requirements. The top end ones are now making Sniper scopes upto 12 power some have built in laser range finders and sometimes digital camera feed back from sniper too the Commander and cost from 3000 Euros to 6000 Euros. Rember a Sniper has a fixed place to shoot from which he has chosen and prepared with deliberation and will not be stalking for game.


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

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Thank you Ghazi Sb for your enlightening posts!!

I was thinking of mounting a Chinese scope on my recently acquired BRNO .22lr! But now, after reading your posts, I think I will be using the Iron Sights for sometime, untill I get my hands on a quality Scope!!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Marksman

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Ghazi wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
nice to see ghazi sb informative input.. literally raising a dead thread into a lively one .. thank you for that sir!!

Regarding optics I wanted to ask whether one would need expensive sights for all usage or is there some kind of application where one could use cheap sights? I have seen a lot of Chinese scopes on combat type guns [not going into their detail as PB]... are they suitable for that purpose? or just a waste of money!!


It is better to stay with iron sights than to go for a cheap scope.A cheapo scope has no use even on a .22, although because of lack of recoil it could last for some time but the main problem is zeroing it , retaining zero and parallax etc

SIR KINDLY ADVISED ABOUT BELOW instrument photos given of bore sighter i use it very often and found it good yet not confident as i started using it now this year.........i normally zero my guns with out firing a round and it works but .22 at times i have to check b4 all hunting trips......in season we go ever week end........nov to mar .........what is ur opinion about its working.
on you tube there are many for its operating method one link is mentioned below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvGdVbqS ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: All About Telescopes

Master at Arms

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Engineer sahib, I think we have already discussed this issue in detail in some other thread where Ghazi sahib opined that there is no other way to zero a rifle accurately except by firing. A bore sighter may used to bring first round close on the target but actual zeroing has be done by firing. Bore sighter just can not compensate for ammo variation which plays a very important role in long range rifle shooting and also for shooters peculiar habits like trigger control and rifle hold etc which may have an effect on his shooting.

In my view, bore sighter is an effective tool to bring the first bullet on target earlier and also to check zeroing of a gun later. Accurate zeroing, however, can only be done through firing. :)

regards

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