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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Actually for a civilian it really doesn't matter how much money POF is making selling various weapons and ammo. To him or even to me what matters is what I can buy from POF and is it reliable? So if they want to compete with the likes of CZ, Glock, and even Chinese weapons for the normal user they better pull up their socks.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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I am un aware of when this pistol was started in POF but it was a lemon. Now in the past year or so some work to improve it has been started. A reasonable amount of money had been spent on it 2 or 3 years ago and one option was to scrap it and sustain the loss; another option was to make efforts to reverse the situation and take the pistol to acceptable levels. In the recent past like the last 6 months a capable engineer is seriously working hard on it. Having personally tested the pistols made recently;. these are accurate and have good triggers and barrels.
This is the first time POFs are making a pistol with proper QA and there are visible improvements. Recently Punjab Elite police and Pakistan Airforce carried out trials and both selected the very recently improved pistols over the Sarasilmaz ST 9 and B6. The accuracy was better and so was the reliability.
Improvement is an on going process and I think the new team is working hard to improve the pistol and the later production will not be dis appointing.


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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Usama wrote:
six_shooter wrote:
Thanks HMR. I have not fired this gun but I have seen it and held it in my hands a number of times. It has never appealed to me. I think Khyber Arms makes the best Beretta clones. They sell for Rs 18k, black and stainless steel.


these days Royal Arms produces nicely finnished Beratta Clones and they do work even
khyber arms now produces pathatic ones , their qauality has finnished .



Completely aside from the topic.
Really RAC makes betty clones? I had no idea. I will have to go and talk to Habib who is managing their factory outlet on behalf of his father.

I would love to do a pictorial comparison b/w the RAC clone and the POF clone.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Made by RAC Peshawer only. BTW RAC karachi is not their official outlet.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Thank You very much Ghazi sb for your valuable input. Can you tell us if barrels are chrome lined and rest of the parts are made from weapons grade metal and heat treated etc?
I am wondering if whole production plant has been procured from somewhere. If not then QC issues will remain.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Ghazi wrote:
I am un aware of when this pistol was started in POF but it was a lemon. Now in the past year or so some work to improve it has been started. A reasonable amount of money had been spent on it 2 or 3 years ago and one option was to scrap it and sustain the loss; another option was to make efforts to reverse the situation and take the pistol to acceptable levels. In the recent past like the last 6 months a capable engineer is seriously working hard on it. Having personally tested the pistols made recently;. these are accurate and have good triggers and barrels.
This is the first time POFs are making a pistol with proper QA and there are visible improvements. Recently Punjab Elite police and Pakistan Airforce carried out trials and both selected the very recently improved pistols over the Sarasilmaz ST 9 and B6. The accuracy was better and so was the reliability.
Improvement is an on going process and I think the new team is working hard to improve the pistol and the later production will not be dis appointing.

Heartening to read this. It would be good to see quality and reliable productions coming out of POF of this 9mm handgun.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Thanks for the update Ghazi sb. We hope to see better quality local guns in the near future.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Ghazi wrote:
I am un aware of when this pistol was started in POF but it was a lemon. Now in the past year or so some work to improve it has been started. A reasonable amount of money had been spent on it 2 or 3 years ago and one option was to scrap it and sustain the loss; another option was to make efforts to reverse the situation and take the pistol to acceptable levels. In the recent past like the last 6 months a capable engineer is seriously working hard on it. Having personally tested the pistols made recently;. these are accurate and have good triggers and barrels.
This is the first time POFs are making a pistol with proper QA and there are visible improvements. Recently Punjab Elite police and Pakistan Airforce carried out trials and both selected the very recently improved pistols over the Sarasilmaz ST 9 and B6. The accuracy was better and so was the reliability.
Improvement is an on going process and I think the new team is working hard to improve the pistol and the later production will not be dis appointing.
It's heartening to know that POF has starting learning its lessons. I have always believed that they have great potential, if the work in right direction. Thanks for sharing the information Sir. BTW, does POF want to continue with PK-9 project or they just want to improve the guns already manufactured and dispose them off.

And Guys, please open a new thread to discuss Royal Arms clone. Lets discuss the POF PK-9 here :)

regards

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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This post was made in the thread "Un-sung Heroes". Pasting it here as I feel lot of background information is available on the subject in this thread.

POF
Sir, quite an emotional reply. But we should talk on facts, isn't it. :)

POF wrote:
PK-9 was never ment to target LEAs but the civil market and yes marketing and manufacturing was initially ill planed but the project is back and getting better quality has improved and with time i have no doubt it will it will make its mark
Well, if it was meant to target civil market than it was a poor selection. Sound professionals with good knowledge of current trends would have not selected this gun and instead of going about it methodically,would have not hired those darra people who had the expertise in manufacturing this gun. You know it that 92FS is one of those guns in which darra people has expertise. Yes I know lot of money has been spent to make the project look somewhat "viable" but supporting a failure doesn't help much. However, being a well wisher of POF, I do sincerely hope that the efforts succeed. I hope you know that PK-9 has been offered to a couple of foreign armies as well but failed to draw a response due to reasons that I would not like to mention here?


POF wrote:
abt the ''Being a "Sarkari" organization, '' and fear of accountability

well this is getting annoying few people have ever even seen the gates of POF and yet they have a very expert opinion abt POF
POF is one of the highest revenue earning sarkari organization in Pakistan
we export to 44 countries in the world , Germany is one of our top customer in terms of small arms
you canT just make statements like that with out knowing the full detail of an organizations and actual potential and its problems
remember POF was never for the civil market we were for military weapons and ammo only and in that field we are very strong
civil market is a different animal all together. specially the Pakistani one any thing with the make in Pakistan stamp is automatically bad and any thing with made in some place other than Pakistan is a great gun EVEN IF IT EXPLODES IN YOU FACE
Again, an emotionally charged write up. :)
Sir, I am not sure what is your level in POF!! There are thousands of POF employees and of course, most of them have no idea of the policy decision making at POF. My comments are based on thorough knowledge and understanding of working of POF. This is an open forum and I would not like to mention the events, dates and names connected with it. Being a Pakistani, I would never like to let down an organization like POF which is so essential for the sustenance of country's defence requirements. However, being a Pakistani, I would sure like to point out the wrongs that are being done in an organization which has huge potential and no competitors in Pakistan. POF has all the potentials to become one of the leading earner for the state but it has become an administrative elephant that spends lot of money on the welfare of its people (much more than what it should) and is less concerned about its commercial viability / progress. Worker unions are becoming a plague and despite serious efforts by the current Chairman to improve the standards and viability of the organization, it will take a long time bring the organization back to a top commercial setup that it once was.

Quote:
buddy we have equipped a standing army of 700000 along with air-force, navy, police ,rangers, FC ,levies , our weapons have been in use since the last 40 years. and not gun in rifles and in MG i am talking almost every conventional ammo and explosive prop and other goodies an army needs
POF has been essential in arming armies of of friendly countries of KSA Bahrain Qatar kenya
had it not been for POF things in sri lanka would have been a lot different just ask any sirlnkan army officer
Of course, this is what the POF was raised for and there is no point mentioning it as we all know it. However, it has the potential of doing far better which it has not. It has become an organization which just reproduces a certain category of weapon / ammo for which a top of the line German or other foreign made plant has already been installed. In the past many decades, POF has been ensuring quality control measures fairly strictly, as per the directions of the original makers however, in the past few years, there have been serious quality control issues.

Second and very important aspect is R&D which seems to have been lacking in POF over the years. POF lacks qualified professionals.
:arrow: POF never seriously tried to hire top professionals. It did hire a few in the past who used POF facilities for their own personal gains. (No names, but if you claim to have inside knowledge than you would exactly know what I am talking about).
:arrow: Some of the so called professionals hired for R&D lacked the formal education / knowledge of the subject and are completing their education by doing hits and trials on POF facilities at the state expense. How much of tax payers money will be spent on educating these professionals..... only time will tell. But I sincerely hope that these guys finally learn something substantial which is of commercial benefit to the organization. (Again, if you are knowledgeable than you would exactly know what I am talking about)
:arrow: Bringing in an expert of the caliber of Ghazi sb is the best thing that has happened in POF over the past few years. But I know the kind of resistance that Ghazi sb faced in POF from few so called professionals who never wanted a true professional in the organization and could clearly see their own jobs at risk. (Yet again, if you are knowledgeable than you would exactly know which people I am referring to)

POF wrote:
PK9 initially has some problems and these problems have been addressed new pk9 are much better
That's heartening to know and I hope the efforts succeed.

POF wrote:
any way buddy have you even been to POF?
:) :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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POF wrote:
well now PK9 is much better try the new models am pretty sure you will like it

Good news. Manufacturing facilities in place now? Where barrel is made.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Anyone who fired the fresh lot of PK9? Please share your experience if you have

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Sir, I doubt any one would go for a new PK9 considering the old one's reputation. POF should hand over a few PK9s to TGF for a detailed review :D

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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six_shooter wrote:
POF should hand over a few PK9s to TGF for a detailed review :D
Not a bad idea sir :D


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Please excuse my pessimism but without quality production facilities, I fail to see how this gun will improve. It remains a Darra made gun with POF stamp.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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HMR wrote:
Please excuse my pessimism but without quality production facilities, I fail to see how this gun will improve. It remains a Darra made gun with POF stamp.

If the parts are manufactured on CNC machines inside POF than how can we call it a Darra made gun?

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Internals of PK-9 were not made on CNC machines. All were crudely hand made with horrible finishing no better than a Darra made gun. As I said, without proper production set up, no real improvement is possible. If newer version is produced in a proper pistol making facility then we can expect any real improvement.


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