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 Post subject: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

Master at Arms

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Hello Guys
I got an opportunity to test fire PK-9 pistol at range. Here is my initial impression of this gun based on its price and in comparison with similar or little higher priced guns.. For other details you may visit this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=81&t=1940


:arrow: Gun comes packed in a plastic box. Its quality is so so but better than a cardboard box or older model CZ boxes. It comes with two mags and a user manual only.

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:arrow: Exterior finish looks OK but it can get scratched easily. Grip plastic panels look and feel no better than any Darra made clone. Interior fit and finish is horrible.Tooling marks and rough edges are everywhere. I have handled many Darra made clones and I can safely say that its no better than a medium quality Darra made gun. In comparison with a Royal Arms Beretta clone, this looks quite inferior. Tilted locking piece ( I think its the small metal part which fits between slide and barrel ) seems flimsy. It doesn't weigh as much I expect it should and in my humble guesstimate, its not very durable. YMMV . Barrel finish leaves lot to be desired as its finish started to wear off pretty quickly.

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:arrow: Trigger has a long pre travel but its relatively creep free. Seems to be in 5.5 Lbs range. Reset is long. Grip feel is little awkward to me but other shooters at range did not share my views. Felt recoil is quite manageable.


:arrow: I could no get good groups even from 10m, both hand hold. Another shooter tried 5 rounds with similar scattered group. May be a better shooter can give a verdict on its accuracy.

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BTW this is what I managed from 15m, single hand with a different gun.

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:arrow: Reliability was poor. Suffered 3 failure to eject with Norinco and POF 1Z ammo. It seemed to be an ejector issue as all three cases were still partially in chamber and had to be manually pulled out.


Conclusion

IMHO it is no better gun than a Darra made clone. It was expected that POF, with all the resources at its disposal, will produce a better product. Even the barrel seems to be of the Darra made quality but an expert will be able to tell us for sure. If I had to choose a local gun because of budget constraints then I would be happier with a Royal Arms Company Clone with its life time warranty and more confidence inspiring fit, finish and feel.


Last edited by HMR on Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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@HMR, Nice and honest review.

We felt the same when this gun was checked at POF outlet and none of us was impressed. I believe this is first handgun from POF's production line but sadly its not up to the mark. I used to get chance to witness the quality of their other products like G3 etc at different occasions while their export shipments are handled and the finish looks much much superior then this one.

Sincerely hoping that POF will improve the quality of handguns as well in near future. POF as brand is pride for the country and it's management should address the issue asap.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Thanks for sharing a candid review with us HMR. I completely agree with NR's sentiments. POF management should consider re-looking at their whole production and related QC processes as well as re-visit the vision of this organisation which we consider as national pride. Where are they planning to take this organisation in the future?

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Thanks HMR Sb. for sharing valuable review.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Let's play our role and register our comments at POF's outlet. I am sure it will go to the top if adressed. :text-feedback:

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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NR... what if TOP is already involved in this inferior quality ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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I don't think so. My father has served POF and this is not part of its norms. Pak Army and related departments are pride of our nation for many reasons including this one.

At least I trust POF and that comes from my personal experience as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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HMR
Thanks for sharing ,
I had heard about its not so neat finishing and plastic grip but now even more confirmed about POF poor production be it ammo or handguns , definitely people at top remains responsible !

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Thanks HMR. I have not fired this gun but I have seen it and held it in my hands a number of times. It has never appealed to me. I think Khyber Arms makes the best Beretta clones. They sell for Rs 18k, black and stainless steel.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Thanks for a very candid review, HMR.

As per my information (which may be wrong), this is more of a darra project, pursued by few influential individuals in POF. Many of the parts are actually darra made. It's brain child of few smart guys who thought whatever will go out with POF name will sell. A project undertaken in hurry, perhaps, where many people inside POF had strong reservations on the viability of project (and still have). But the influential group prevailed and made their nokery on this project. Of course, it won't bring a good name to POF in the long run. It will not even be there after a while. As per my information, this pistol has not gone through the quality control procedures through which other POF products (Rifle G3, MP5, ammos etc) go through. Actually, a full manufacturing facility for manufacturing this pistol DOES NOT EXIST in POF (like it is there for other weapons / ammo). I would even hesitate to call it a genuine POF product though it comes with the name of POF. Many parts, few important ones, have reportedly been manufactured outside POF. Since they have already manufactured a lot and a group of people have made fortunes (on Public Expense), the finished product has to be disposed off, in my view.

See, how a few people can use (and ultimately defame) an established organization for pursuing their personnel goals........ and perhaps, might even get away with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Thanks for the insight KBW. I remember THI telling me exactly the same thing last year and my eyes were like this O_O when he said that gunsmiths from Darra have been brought into POF to manufacturer a Beretta clone with POF stamp on it !!!

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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and NR do you remember when we checked out the piece at the POF outlet, it was acting rather funny.. the decocking lever had to be pulled down from both sides for it to function..

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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it means our government departments are full of corrupt people.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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I may sound unpatriotic but there are problems with other not so Darra products of POF. Hope the gradual decline doesnt become a free fall.


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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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SR wrote:
it means our government departments are full of corrupt people.

No. They're NOT full of corrupt people. But yes, there are corrupt people in government departments, just like there are corrupt people in every segment of our society and it is from this same society that people get into government departments.

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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six_shooter wrote:
Thanks HMR. I have not fired this gun but I have seen it and held it in my hands a number of times. It has never appealed to me. I think Khyber Arms makes the best Beretta clones. They sell for Rs 18k, black and stainless steel.


these days Royal Arms produces nicely finnished Beratta Clones and they do work even
khyber arms now produces pathatic ones , their qauality has finnished .

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 Post subject: Re: Initial Impression: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone

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Reportedly, initial samples of PK-9 were well made as they were meant to be kept in gun shows / sold for capturing market and therefore, lot of attention was paid in their manufacturing. However, they were also not manufactured under the POF quality controls on proper plants / machines and were basically high quality darra made guns. The later lots manufactured commercially are lower in quality.

It is flabbergasting to imagine that how a group of few people violated all the rules and produced a third class copy of a renowned gun. POF is a registered manufacturer of international standard and they can not produce gun copies like that. How could they produce exact copy of a known gun without acquiring the license from the original manufacturer. |Why were the funds allotted for manufacturing a well know gun for which the license was yet not acquired from Beretta and a proper manufacturing facility in POF didn't exist. Please note that for mass production of every product, a separate facility is to be developed. This project, along with a few poorly conceived ammo projects have really harmed the reputation of POF in last few years. It will be better for POF to disown this gun and deduct the money wasted on the project from the pay / pension of those who conceived this project. . The production of new 7.62x51 ammo is perhaps the only achievement of POF in last few years and let me acknowledge, I have fired the 2013 lot of POF 7.62x51 ammo and it is a top quality stuff, better than or at least equal to S&B .308 Win ammo.

I hope POF learns its lessons from this episode. It's still a very viable organization with lot of potential. Reportedly, things have improved in POF in last year or so but they have a long way to go. There is a big lot of officer / workers who just want privileges but do not want to work. It is becoming more of a welfare organization for its workers with low productivity / non-commercial attitude. Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Responsibilty lies with whole management. Top brass is either complict or incompetetent. How could they give go ahead for an obviously illegal and obviously illconceived project. If the top management is so ignorant of such disasterstrous projects being run right under their noses or they can be fooled into allowing such projects then it is they who are ruining a national institution.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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HMR, to comment on this, one has to understand the mechanics of POF working in detail. It is a huge organization and things are not as simple as they look like from outside. One has to see the things in comparison to overall conditions in the country and in other state owned mega organizations.

Of course their are people involved in this project, senior level, intermediate level and all. However, reportedly POF did not invest any significant amount in this project as purchase of plant was not involved. Nevertheless, you are right that legal and specially commercial implications of the project should have been seen before launching the project.

BTW, the legal aspect is debatable too as patent for Baretta 92 has reportedly expired (like CZ 75B patent). However, commercial viability viz a viz commercial standing of the product should have been seen (92 FS is not one of the best available designs to be copied). As per my understanding, this project stands nowhere amongst the POF projects. Just an effort by few people to earn some name and strengthen their positions in the organization and they got away with it because of lack of accountability. Or may be we don't know details of any internal actions that might have been taken. As for POF, this was a tiny project not involving much investment. But they have got to dump the lot that has been manufactured, somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

Master at Arms

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OK sir.
It was more of the frustration really as faulty 1Z batches, jamming MPs, horrible green 7.62x39 ammo and now this PK-9 disappointment became too much to bear from a reputable institution.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Not straying from the discussion. I think POF should do a recall of the PK-9. What's the point in selling this weapon? Doesn't the top boss know this? I saw this piece of junk two days back at POF outlet and did not even gave it a second look. I have seen better looking and performing Beretta clones in Peshawar.
Just because of this gun, and examples alluded by HMR, POF is sure to loose credibility and hence business. Who would be willing to go for the newer products like B6 or ST-9, manufactured by POF (If and when).

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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POF has never depended on civil market for its business and reputation, except for Shaheen shotgun cartridges. In shotgun cartridges, POF almost enjoys a monopoly in Pakistan and reportedly sold cartridges worth 2 Bn Pkr last year. All remaining products of POF are defence oriented and civilian public is not the target buyer. Commercially, it doesn't matter much to POF weather anyone buys its 9mm or 7.62 mm ammos in civil market or not because they are just a tiny fraction of its business. The main POF buyers are defence forces of Pakistan and few other countries.

When HMR says that there have been problems with POF 1Z ammo or with jamming MP5s, that's a serious concern. Though POF 1Z is also a small production item, such things can harm the reputation of POF a great deal. However, the main ammos, ie, 7.62x51 for rifle and MG plus the artillery ammos are doing very well. I am not trying to say that things are good in POF but may be we are seeing the side which has negligible effect on POF commercial performance and basing our comments on something which is not POF's main item.

As for the PK-9, I agree with you that POF should either recall this product or reduce it's price to something like 20 K. They are not manufacturing it any further, as per my knowledge. Production of B6 and ST-9 or whatever other Turkish guns will be different. They have a long term contract with Sarsilmaz and when they manufacture the stuff, they will have proper machines installed for the purpose. If the things are done properly as per procedures, I don't think the product will be bad.

Please don't compare PK-9 with the Turkish pistols which POF is importing from Sarsilmaz at the moment and might manufacture in future when proper facilities are installed. PK9 was the brain child of one guy who had limited knowledge of the guns manufacturing but he was "very much in" with POF senior officials and was able to convince them that this will be a good project. The project was undertaken at lower scale, getting most parts manufactured from darra, hiring a few gunsmiths from darra. This guy wasted POF resources on an ill-conceived project but was somehow, able to establish a reputation amongst the POF officials of being a very competent and imaginative guy who really knows the guns well. This shows how non-professional many of the senior officials in POF are that a guy, who had no idea and experience of manufacturing guns, was trusted for this project and given resources to do that. No body comprehended the viability of the project in the long run and the ability of POF experts to undertake such a project. I would rather say that seniors did not care about it whether the project will succeed or not BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WILL GET AWAY WITH IT AND THERE WILL BE NO ACCOUNTABILITY.
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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

Master at Arms

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KBW sb MPs are made peoperly and on imported plants. They dont inspire much confidence either. I would not buy any POF product now until its tested properly.


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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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I can speak based on my experience of POF manufactured G3 and it's 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 ammo. I've found their G3 to be very well manufactured and finished. Obviously not comparable with H&K ones, but then check out the price difference as well before comparing the two. I recently tried one to up to 600 meters and found it reasonably accurate keeping in mind it's main purpose of use and the limitations of its design. With respect to it's 7.62x39 ammo, I've found it to be consistently more accurate than Chinese as well as Wolf ammo available in our market. No issue of reliability as well. POF's 7.62x51 ammo offers very good value for money, is the cheapest one available in our market and is capable punching 2 MOA groups at 600 yards with the right rifle and provided you do your part. Not bad at all for practice purposes. I haven't tested their MP5 so cannot comment on it. With respect to their 9mm ammo, I know for a fact that dozens of our members have collectively fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of POF 1Z and 2Z without experiencing any issues.

The above reflects the "potential" of Pakistan Ordnance Factory and we should remain hopeful that with some corrective measures, these few recent hiccups can be easily overcome by POF management.

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 Post subject: Re: POF PK-9 Beretta Clone > Initial Impression:

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Would never go for this weapon. Personally, I don't like this design and then on top of it the quality and finish of POF is pathetic.

-10 from my side to this arm...

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