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 Post subject: Re: Pattern Issue in my Baikal MP-153

Marksman

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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
@ KBW, ur absoluly right, the gun gives a good pattern if the beed is at the lower edge of the target...... there were 4 friends with me at the firring range and they proposed the same.... i agree with u and them but my point is when ur out in the field hunting, u dont get much time to react/fix the gun first and then shoot.... to prove my point, we started hunting pigeons and doves, all shots taken within 30 yards were amazing, anything beyond that was a bird wastage, for example, we shot over 10 doves out which 6 were dropped after flying for good bout 10-20 seconds, couldnt retrive them, so i gave the gun a friend, same thing happened......

Same gun gave a different pattern with another choke...... y my chokes are shooting up and giving off such huge spread.... if u click the pics, the will open up in a seperate page,thus, giving u a better view..... Pls also not the number of slugs on the chart, since the gun is shooting up, i beleive 60% + was out of the chart at 35 yards, if u have to drop a duck sized bird at 40 +, it would be a mistake trying it because the bird will be injured.....


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 Post subject: Re: Pattern Issue in my Baikal MP-153

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Nice discussion and good practical share by KBW and haider.

Please share your experiences and info on the different shotguns, ammo used and patterns in the form of a review as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Pattern Issue in my Baikal MP-153

Marksman

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The internal design of chokes can be broken down into three main groups:

1- Conical Parallel- They have a cone that blends into a parallel section which helps to stabilize the shot charge as it leaves the choke.

2- Straight Conical- This has a cone only. Where the cone stops is the point where the shot exits the choke.

3- Wad Retarding-They do not have the constriction in the same manner as either of the above designs but instead use bumps or projections to alter the shot pattern.

The most common design in use is the conical parallel. Having this in mind, i think i have 'straight conical' design of chokes on the Baikal that is why it is not giving the correct range that im used to. I think i need the conical parallel design of the choke tube. OK, just another factor the internal length of the choke constriction varies from 1.5" to 4".

In my humble opinion the conical parallel design is superior and the longer the conical design the better it is. Let me explain this I would use an improved modified choke with a 1.4" internal length on partridges and an improved modified choke ( the same as for partridges) but with an internal length of 4" for ducks

For extreme range and very dense pattern for very tough birds like geese I would use a full choke.

For very high flying ducks and geese I would like to use a full choke with an internal parallel length of 4".

Enough said, i have decided to buy aftermarket chokes, the only confusion im having is that an XF was initially produced for steal shots,therefore, good results cant be expected using a lead shot.

Moreover, if i order a construction of flush .030 (F), i think same result can be achieved using an extended .025 construction?

Need ur feedback guys.......


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 Post subject: Re: Pattern Issue in my Baikal MP-153

Master at Arms

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Haider bhai, please do see one more aspect. I hope your gun fits you well and it has the correct length of pull?? This is important. I ask this because I don't see a significant difference in the pattern formed by your choke and the choke of your friends gun. And as we all know, shooter's eye forms the rear sight in a shotgun. If it is not at correct height, one tends to shoot up or down. May like to check this aspect as well.

regards

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 Post subject: Re: Pattern Issue in my Baikal MP-153

Marksman

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ummmmm, KBW bro, ur post rings a bell :doh: ...... Let me check.......


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
KWB bro, as I have previously mentioned in my post that the Mp153 had a fitting issue….. the bead or the rib was at least 2 inches lower then my master eye….. since there are no shims with Baikal, therefore, I took it to Haji Akram in Lahore to raise the comb and put a cast off….. instead of making a new stock, he lifted the comb and gave a cast off of about quarter an inch…..

The gun started coming on a littleeee bit low… I took it out for pattering but the gun was shooting very high…… to adjust that, the comb can’t be raised any further, therefore, I got the cheek plate adjusted and the gun started coming on beautifully….

The pattern which came on the chart, although my friends choke was fitted at that time, the shot was taken with a help of a rest and the bead was placed at the bottom of the bull…. While all the shots I took, the bead was placed at the center of the bull and no rest was used, thus, it projected all the slugs on top/out of the chart….. I’ll try the pattern again with the rib this time to see how it acts and will post the results.


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
I have finally ordered trulock chokes for Mp153 yesterday. Expected delivery is in mid march, looking forward to post the results


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Master at Arms

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Haider sahib, good choice, Trulock makes good chokes. Have you ordered flushed chokes or extended ones? May also like to have a look at these chokes.............

http://www.thegunforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=16094#p16094

regards

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

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@ haider
Have you checked the Pitch ( angle of your buttplate to the line of bore ) it is just as important as length of pull as well as cast off.
If you change your drop in comb, you could be changing your pitch.

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
KBW bro, i ordered the IM flushed and XF extended....im thinking of ordering another turkey choke with .060 constriction. what do u think? should i? i saw ur post first and asked a question

@LAGS, the peace i bought was faulty (how unlucky - but being a nerd head, not gona sell it, i will tame it/tailor it)......i took the gun to a local gun smith, showed him the patterns, he told me to raise the comb as the rib/bead was more then an inch lower then the line of sight.... since there are no shims available for MP153, he adjusted the stock accordingly ( screwed the stock totally by shortening the wooden part which takes the receiver).....

To cut the story short, i took it to another gun smith, after thorough check up he diagnosed that the cause of irregular pattern/ an extremely wide spread is because the barrel itself is .717 which i think is far tighter then any of the chokes i have...... i have asked him to open up the bore from .717 to .729..... need ur advice?

Now the current situation is that he is making a stock for me.... as for opening the bore, will wait for ur, KBW and other experts feedback...


Last edited by haider on Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Master at Arms

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Haider, I think not a bad idea but depends on the use. What use you foresee for a .60 constriction Turkey choke?

Secondly, are you sure your MP153 barrel has a .717 bore :shock: Mine is .729, which is normal 12g dia.
I am surprise how Truchoke style Baikal chokes fitted in your barrel if it was .717? I hope I am understanding the things correctly?

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

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@ Haider
KBW is right, the 12ga. bore diameter should be .725 minimum and .729 is the industry standard.
How, and where are they measuring the bore ?
Also have you downloaded any info off the NET about stock measurements, how to do them, and what effect they have on your point of aim ?

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
I have checked with George turlock and according to him .060 constriction will work fine with lead #4 and 6....reason behind ordering .060 is that the XF is .040, where as .060 sounds more promising...

As for the bore, it was a shock for me as well.... i have measured it my self with 2 different calipers... reading is same .717.... ur understanding it correctly.... they made the groves according to standard chokes Baikal is producing with a faulty bore.... the reason i think behind it is that for example there is a lot of 100 piece.... they make the dia accordingly but after producing 90 or so, the dia becomes lose..... cheap mass producers never bother to check if the out come is accordingly the measurements they set the dia for initially.... so my assumption is that the few end pieces of the lot will mostly likely have issue like mine....

i haven't received the trulock chokes yet.... if i have to get the bore enlarged.... i'll ask the gunsmith to bore it till the grooves start...... should i get the bore adjusted to .729 or .730 will be alright?
===================================================================
@ LAGs, i was posting when it prompt that u have posted....To answer the questions,

please correct me if wrong, the internal dia of the forcing cone is same thru out its length... i think it does not vary at any point.... the only variations are at the chamber and at the choke.... yes ur absolutely right, the .729 is the factory standard which i have read.... few questions

1. im really interested in knowing as to why u say that it should be .725 at the minimum?
2. are there any inherent advantages to .725 internal dia?...
3. secondly, i have read and heard every one singing praises of back boring i.e. increasing the internal dia will give u more pattern density?
4. if the gun magazine gurus are to be believed back boring gives u denser pattern by removing or shortening the pallet trail, the best of my understanding, a .725 dia would give u a longer trail of pallets?

Anxiously waiting for ur feedback... please educate me on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

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@ haider
Before you go screwing around with your shotguns barrel diameter, do this simple check.
Screw your choke in all the way, now take a peice of wire like copper or aluminum and bend a 90 degree bend in one end of a 12" peice about 10mm long with a sharp end.
Put the sharp edge of the hook inside your bore and pull it against your bore wall all the way out the end of your gun.
You should not Feel a jump, or it hook on the line where your barrel and choke meet.
now try it going into the end of your choke to your barrel. Again you will Feel the line where the choke meets the barrel, but it shouldnt hook or catch on the line.

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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god almighty, i wish i had known this earlier, my gun is with the gunsmith who happens to be located at a distance of 300 km from me, i will ask him first thing in the morning not to touch the bore unless i tell him to....till i carry out the test u have mentioned...

im looking for answers to my questions posted above regrading the disadvantages and advantages of the bore dia .725 vs .717 vs .729 etc

as far as the test is concerned, it will only indicate the seating of the choke is properly matched or otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

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@ haider
The barrels are bored a .725 and then honed or polished to the .729 dimention.
The industry sets a standard to fit safe applications, with all standard ammo.
A UNDERSIZED bore is Not going to give you tighter patterns. Only Higher pressures.
The choke, re- aligns the pellets by slowing them down for a split second and letting all the pellets catch up to the shot column as they are forced thru a constriction.

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

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The test will show if the bore and the choke are the same dimention, and if you are going from a tight bore to a larger sized choke tube.

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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ur comments made me sit back and think..... ur absolutely right..... Thanks and valuable lesson learn... had i been in Arizona, i would have made a bee line for u with my shotguns in tow... its a pleasure learning of off u...


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Master at Arms

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I think LAGS has very comprehensively covered the issue, better than what I could have possibly done.

However, just two points.......

I am confused about the use of .40 constriction turkey chokes with #4 and #6 birdshots. Against what game and at what distance you would use this combination, say #6 shell fired with a .60 Turkey choke on?
I am also not understanding that if the barrel bore was .717 than how did the chokes fit in, in first place because as per my knowledge, outer diameter of all chokes is the same? And if the standard chokes were fitting in, how come the bore dia was .717?

I would also suggest that you check the thing in detail before going for any alteration in the bore. Also, please wait for the Trulock chokes and try them in your gun. If they fit well, than there should not be any problem with the bore, isn't it?

Secondly, I am not sure about your gun but my experience of Russian weapons over the past two decades (handguns, shotguns and rifles) has been extremely good. IMHO, Russian weapons lack in finish and looks but never in precision of machining of the vital parts like barrel. Most of my friends have Baikal MP153, at least 10 of them, of different years of manufacture. We keep interchanging the chokes and never had a problem of interchangeability of chokes which means the bores are of similar dimension. Even the after market Truchoke style chokes fit perfectly on all MP153 that I have seen. After market chokes have been giving fitting problems in Browning and Benelli but seldom in MP153.



Good luck and regards :)

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

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I think the confusion is, The BORE by what Haider said is .717.
The end of the Barrel should be counterbored and threaded to fit the Choke that has a .774 O.D. in it's thread.
The inside dimention of the Choke should still be .729 at the start of the choke, or per minimum standards .725.
The bore dimention has no bearing on what thread they used to adapt fo a screw in choke.
The Russian shotguns use a thin wall barrel thats why they can not be threaded to fit a Win-Choke that has a O.D. of.812, or remington at .814, or Beretta at .840 O.D.
The CHOKE I.D. should MATCH the I.D. dimention of the bore.

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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Sorry to interrupt but just wanted to say this exchange of knwoledge really is wonderful to watch. Bravo. pls continue :)


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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@KBW, as per my knowledge (please correct if wrong) the chokes constrictions starts from .000 and goes up to .090.....

An improved modified choke with inside parallel of 4 inches is superb for those extremely high geese or ducks using #4 or # 6. An IM choke with internal parallel of 1.5 inches is superb for partridges/quails. The trick is based on the inside parallel length of choke being used.

That being said, please refer to following chart (im not trying to teach anything, just trying to put relevant stuff so that other can understand or u can correct me if wrong)

* True Cylinder 0-1 points
* Improved cylinder 3-6
* Quarter (American Improved) 8-12
* Half (American Modified) 17-23
* Three-quarters (Improved Modified) 25-30
* Full 35-40
* Super full 45+

Percentage of pellets inside 30in circle at 40yd

* True Cylinder 30-40
* Improved 50
* Quarter 55
* Half 60
* Three-quarters 65
* Full 70-75
* Super full 76+

I wanted to experiment on having a .060 constriction, firing a #6 for geese and high crossing ducks. This idea got into my head because of a Chinese O/U i have. It has fixed chokes of .025 and .035 but when u shoot with it, it surprises u by dropping mallards at 60 + yards, so lot of research and testing, i came to a conclusion that the internal parallel length of the chokes are 2.5 and 3.5. Because of this reason, standard half and full chokes gives me EXTREME ranges. Im trying to achieve the same result with a repeater.

As for the bore, if u remember or scroll this thread, i have mentioned that i have tried chokes of other MP153 as well. They fit perfectly. The entire issue cam up because
1. It was shooting high
2. It had the worst pattern i have seen.

tailored the stock, fitting issue fixed but the pattern mystery was going beyond me, my father told me to check the bore size, when checked, it was shocking .717, took it to gunsmith and same reading, he most amazing part of the story is that normal MP153 chokes fits in perfetly. Currently, the bore is so tight that the shot is not even touching choke inside walls.

@LAGS ........... bingo


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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Location: Lahore, Pakistan
Ok guys..... A tribute to haji Iqbal Gunsmith Sargodha….

After screwing up the stock of MP153, I was looking for a gun smith in Punjab who can understand the issue and guide me how to fix it…… after a lot of search, I decided to go to Sargodha (2 Hours drive from Lahore)……

I was expecting a similar shop like in dara adam khail but when I arrived the place in Sargodha, the total area the had was more then 16 kanals …. With huge wall in the front and few door less rooms. When I entered the main hall, there were few huge machines lying there and a bunch of people sitting on the floor working on different handguns/parts. When I closely monitored the activity going on, they were producing pistols of different calibers (All on order).. wasn’t impressed at all because the guys seemed to be uneducated. (By uneducated, I mean the guy had a white beard with dirty cloths the accent was like he left school in 4th grade).

To cut the story short, I was very disappointed but since I had traveled over 250 Km one way to see the guy, I thought, let’s have a discussion and see how it goes..(I had already decided that I’m not gona give my shotgun to him) I told him that the gun shoots up and has no pattern….. he asked me to assemble and mount the gun… after 2 or 3 mounts, the white beard guy come close and said….. “I have to tailor the stock for u because I think u can see the entire rib from the top and u don’t drop ur head when u mount, secondly, u don’t close ur eye either, means when ur out for hunt, u don’t actually see the bead....therefore, it needs tailoring to fit your mounting style “…..

That was impressive…. I made up my mind to test the guy…so I told him that at 25 yards, with #4 shot, it screws up the pattern (I didn’t exchange the notes of my diagnostics because I wanted to see what this guy can do). He took me outside and took a shot with #4 at 30 yards, hardly 40% was on the chart. He kept thinking for few minutes and then took me back inside. Dissembled the gun, took the barrel, took a metal rod thick from the bottom, with a slant, thin from the other end, inserted in the barrel, it got stuck half way the middle, took a caliper and measured the rod, turned around said the same thing which I diagnosed a week ago, the bore was .717……. I WAS IMPRESSED….. had a chat for about an hour on the issue and instructed him again and again not screw up please. He asked to visit him again after a week….

Yesterday I went to Sargodha again………. The new seasoned walnut stock was properly shaped and attached to the repeater. After hello, hi, we asked to mount it again…….. WOW….. the gun came on beautifully….. but it required a minor adjustment, so he took off the stock and fixed it right there and then, tried again, IT WAS PERFECT….. put a brown chart on the wall and took 30 steps, loaded #8 and fired….. WOW…. 86% pellets were in the 30” circle…… I tried it again and again because I couldn’t believe the results…. He asked to be to try it from 45 yards…. WOW ……… 71% pellets in the circle……….. I WAS AMAZED….. he only fixed one choke.

I couldn’t believe the results, so I dismantle the gun, took the barrel and did my best to figure out a single issue, the bore/barrel was perfectly polished, I took the caliper, measured it myself, it was perfect .729 after the polish (Like LAGS said)….

I was so impressed that I asked him to make me a shotgun, he refused and told me that his father got the manufacturing license in 1959 and ever since, they have produced only 17 shotguns so far, first was gifted to Ronald Regan before the he was presidential candidate, second went to President Ayub Khan, Third went to president Lagari,. I was the saw pics myself. Anyways, I have, somehow, managed to convince him to make me a shotgun. The pics of his work IS AMAZING……. I will be going again next weekend to pick up my gun, will take pics, pattern it and will post here. I will also try to take pics of his work which is amazing…… currently, he's only making pistols and pump action on request. Following are the pics.

Haji Iqbal
Image

His son... Kalleem
Image

Few Samples
Image

Iqbals work table

Image

Image

wokring on my stock
Image
Image

Machinery
Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Master at Arms

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Haider sahib, that's wonderful stuff. I am happy that now your MP153 shoots so well.

And thanks for the update on Haji Iqbal. I have heard that he makes shotguns on order that cost more than a Beretta and Browning Citori. And one has to wait for many years to get his turn. It's great that he has agreed to make a shotgun for you. Good luck. :greetings-waveyellow:

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 Post subject: Re: Baikal MP-153 > Pattern & Spread Discussion

Marksman

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thanks KBW bro and true, he asked me to wait for a year lol.........

I bought the gun before the season started, dying to take it on a hunt.....


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