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 Post subject: feed your horse like a horse

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
I went for the first hunt of the season with my friends. It was a successful day with regard to hunt on decoys. After we were finished with our hunting activities and had lunch and some rest, a friend who brought along his licensed Type 56-1, thought to see the accuracy of his weapon by hitting the stones placed at 25 meter increments. But the weapon jammed after few rounds roared through the pipe. How can it be? One of the most successful and rugged weapon platform ever built jamming so miserably. The firearm was checked and it was observed that that the bullet case swelled in the chamber and thus, caused Failure to Eject. The face of the owner of the AK worth looked at. He was already depressed with thought of any mechanical problem with the gun and the slight jokes of the group added some insult to the injury. The gun was field stripped and stuck case was painstakingly removed. The owner again thought to fire some bullets to confirm the gun was OK. But this time the gun failed to complete the cycle with the very first cartridge it was fed with. It was once again field stripped to be checked and it was the same problem again. It was suggested by another friend that the matter seems to be ammo related thus the ammo available in other magazine may be used. When other magazine, which contained Russian “Tula” ammo, was inserted, the gun fired entire magazine without any hiccup.
In the night, we discussed the issue and when I observed the magazine with the ammo that caused the problem twice, I observed that it was filled with a variety of ammunition, with different headstamps ,with one thing in common that it entirely appeared to be military surplus ammo. I started to look at each and every cartridge carefully and the results were interesting. I found some bullets different from others. Some bullets looked and felt different particularly at the neck; shoulder and tip of projectile but only a minute and careful examination would reveal the differences. They had their primers to be looked unusual too. I shared the result with rest of group and invited them to observe them the dissimilarities in the bullets. My observation was agreed upon by as well as differed by my colleagues and we had a good and productive discussion on the issue . Anyway, since it was a hectic day, we went to sleep after Dinner.
I have gotten PB licenses too, so when I returned, I took the ammo available with me and found that the ammo I have, also possesses the same variations. I segregated the bullets on the basis of such variation and thought to open them. When I opened the first of them, the results were shocking. That round was a fake one. It contained something greenish stuff like dry weed instead of silver gray (Chamankar Surmai) shining powder grains. I opened the second one, and the result was the same. It was also one of the fake bullets. I opened the third , but this time it was an original , I felt sorry to spoil an original bullet and decided to observe the differences more keenly , yet when I opened the next bullet , it happened to be the another original. Heck, what am I doing? I said to myself, I should be more careful as I cannot waste my ammo on mere suspicion. I took another careful and over all inspection of ammo again and on the basis of that observation made the segregation afresh. Finally I started to open the “condemned” cartridges and one by one they revealed themselves to be the fake. Most of my stash of ammo consisted upon the supposed-to-be-Russian military surplus-ammo, which I got years ago but fortunately never fired a single one. All of those proved to be the fake. But I am happy I did not fire a single one in my gun.
The differences I observed between original and fake ammo appear to me to be
1) The difference between primers. The primers of fake rounds seems to be more depressed
2) The neck and shoulder area of the fake round appear to be wider
3) The tip of projectile of fake a fake round is more pointed and sharp.
4) Some of the fake rounds even feel different in hand. It seems that those are made of inferior material.
We take a lot of care of our firearms that we purchase from our hard-earned money and discuss a lot about them for being sure to get a genuine firearm and to avoid to end up with a clone, but once we get a weapon of our choice, all of our concentration get focused on its maintenance, lubrication, oiling etc and a very less heed is paid on what ammo we are putting through it. It is enough for us to just to ask verbally the dealer selling us the ammo that “Ammo is OK na”, and we expect that if the ammo is fake, the eyes of that dealer would be filled with tears and he would say “No my brother, I have just sold a packet of fake ammo to you, I have betrayed your trust, I should be punished for that”. However I this never happens, rather, the dealer locks eyes and says “how can i do this thing to any of my customer, especially with you, I consider you as my elder/younger brother” and we take that ammo happily and on the next day, we send all the lead down range and return home happily. We are less knowledgqble and apprehensive about the havoc fake ammo could play with our firearm. I discussed the issue with a very good gunsmith of my area and he told me that he has seen countless rifles that have been devastated by such fake ammo. According to him, the fake ammo contains some propellant that has so severe bang that it badly damages the inner mechanism of firearm in first instance. Secondly, the bullet it sends in barrel is made of third class material and its jacket is made of iron instead of copper that literally destroys the groves, lands and chrome plating. The fake bullet is also open from the rear, instead of being boat tailed and the corners of the copper metal jacket are not folded/curved, thus, the lead used in automobile batteries (out of which those fake bullets are made of) injure the gun first (that fires it) and never hits the target as its weight and the force generated by that bogus propellant is never calibrated. ……. Well , after what I saw on opening the fake rounds myself , I don’t see any reason to disagree the gentleman .
Let me show you what I saw.
Please note that the ammo shown here is covered by a legally issued valid PB license and several pictures of one round are taken from different angles for general information and education purpose


My sophisticated tools for opening the rounds
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This is how an original rounds “internals” look like. See the powder grains
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The bullet’s tail (Boat tail?)
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A fake round. I thought of picturizing it came to my mind after it sustained a considerable torture as it was refusing to reveal its secrets. I felt that fake rounds take much effort to open.
Image


Last edited by zain on Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Standard Shot

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
The greenish thingy, used instead of powder inside the round had taken a hard shape and did not pour out of it when I turned it upside down , I had to poke it with a match stick to get it out of its hideout.
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This is what is used as propellant / powder in the fake round . looks like dried weed or “Naswar”
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These are the secrets of a fake round revealed.
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For a better look
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The tail of fake bullet. The difference is self speaking
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Another look
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Here is another fake bullet.
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Last edited by zain on Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Standard Shot

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
Another look
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An original and a fake round side by side.
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The tails of an original and a fake bullet juxta posed
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Another fake round. Look at the tip of the bullet.
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I observed that there was no consistency in the quantity of “weed” (powder) in fake rounds. You can see that both of above bullets are of same grains (weight) but the quantity of “weed” they contain is drastically different

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View of two fake bullets of same grains
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The original and fake bullet
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Last edited by zain on Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Standard Shot

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
Fake
Image


Nothing but the fake.
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Nothing but the truth.
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The head-stamp of so called “Russian Military Surplus ammo
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The case of so called “Russian Military Surplus ammo
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But I think she belongs to darra , not a Russian beauty.
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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Standard Shot

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
The tail of so called Russian surplus bullet.
Image
This round , though contained a fake powder , yet its quality seems to be better than others

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However the bullet does not seem to be kind to barrel of the gun
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Upper portion – Fake rounds. Lower portion -308 rounds with and without tactical tip with a magnet between them, This shows original 308 bullets are not made of steel.
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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Sharp Shooter

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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 980
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Wow...thanks for the report.


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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

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Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:44 am
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Location: Sargodha, Pakistan
Nice report Zain!

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It is better to "wear it out", than to "rust it out"!


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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Regional Ambassador - Sargodha Chapter

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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:07 am
Posts: 1337
Location: Sargodha, Pakistan
There are more than one marriage lines on your hand!

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Guns are awesome, if you disagree kill yourself with a knife.


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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
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Location: Islamabad
Lol, MJ.
Zain, thanks for the nice report and pics. The casing cannot be made in Darra or locally, so it is bascially reloaded ammo. The culprit being the powder and the primer (in some cases) and off course the bullet itself is far from perfection.

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Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Marksman

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Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:20 pm
Posts: 205
Location: Peshawar/Multan
Thanks zain for your great efforts, This is one ammo u get a lot of problem while getting it, Starts from Rs20 a pop to Rs65 a pop, n u ll be always confused while buying these...


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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Standard Shot

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
The fake Bullets and cases are made of Iron , .

The fake bullets appear to be either copper washed or very poorly jacketed. The pictures of bullets/projectiles on main page may be seen as reference . it appears that the force, pliers applied on the bullets , while they were pulled out of case has pelt their thin copper wash. However when bullets were put on lathe machine to know the material they are made of, it appeared to be the Iron . Magnet “HUGS” them all . The cases are also made of steel/iron as they stick with it .

Sorry for pictures quality.
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The tails of fake bullets were put on lathe machine

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Magnet "hugs" them all

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Image


Last edited by zain on Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

Standard Shot

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
Mian Jee wrote:
There are more than one marriage lines on your hand!

You are the greatest palmist in human history . You can even see the non existent second marriage line which others have failed to see


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 Post subject: Re: feed your horse like a horse

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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sanghar, Pakistan
see how the fake powder burns . Its burning was so explosive like, that i had to back off hurridly . You can feel that in this clip
http://vid1270.photobucket.com/album... burning.mp4




This clip shows the burning of original powder. I erroneously say in this clip that “the original powder is less in quality” while I meant that “ original powder is less in quantity” . See the difference. The original powder has a slow and controlled manner of burning contrary to fake powder

http://vid1270.photobucket.com/album...n/IMG_0165.mp4


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