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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@KBW.
YES the second pic is the floating anvil; if you look at pic No: 4 the floating anvil fits the entire length of the primer cap. Will it slide through the hole?? is that possible.. IMHO this is a dangerous round. EXTREMELY dangerous... I AM NOT going advice anyone to buy this no matter what.. for range practice. The probability issue of something going wrong gets high in thousands of rounds.. by many people; something is bound to go wrong someday.
Anyways my prime issue is the overly loaded case.. as it can easily expand the chamber resulting in something really devastating for a shooter.
IF the MV of a specific brand is tested then the difference in MV will show what the round is really.
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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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atiqmassan wrote:
Image

Atiq bhai, this is an abnormally large size anvil that is almost the same size the case dia. I am not sure how such a large anvil will function and secondly, merely because of its size, it is extremely dangerous as it will fly off outside the barrel at high MV. It's just like a mini bullet, a second bullet. Very dangerous, I agree and this ammo SHOULD NOT BE USED.

KBW wrote:
Image
Now here is a pic of local berdan primers along with the anvils that I found in the ammo that I tested. As you can see, it a small 2 mm piece of steel wire which fits inside the primer hole. Again a free floating one but much smaller that the one you have shown. Though small, its still big enough to cause damage to the barrel.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@KBW brother this anil is so large that it fills the entire space of the Primer cap and i seriously doubt that it can possibly fly out.. i will open all the cartridges that i have.. then see if any has a smaller or missing floating anvil. Even if it flies out; it will be right behind the bullet and towards the target..
I am more so concerned about the amount of powder that BBF uses.. it is a bit tooo much.. like the fake chinese, EASILY widening the camber to a mm and soon the chamber will surely blast. Seen it happen to a 709 taurus at the range.. this guy was shooting his 709 with fake chinese, I have 50 of the local chinese RED AMMO.. the bullets are brass colored and NOT sold as REAL chinese... i am looking at them just behind CZ-75.. but i have to test some things on it as well as open the primer cap to see if they are also the floating anvil ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ atiq, have you shot this ammo? This is dangerous stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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6S about 500 to 550 rounds of this stuff already gone through two guns. Since the time it showed FTF due to primer issues we stopped. I shot 200 but stopped cauz i was getting unburnt powder coming to eyes because of wind blowing. It also made serious crud in the guns.. and had to be cleaned during shooting session. I Hated the round in the only session we fired it.. didnt have any other ammo. Since then we returned all the ammo and don't buy it or recommend it even to any one .. too much fouling, too much powder.. unburnt as well as the now new info that it has floating anvil.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Atiq sahib,
As you would have seen on page 2 of this thread, many ammos were opened, measurements taken, than reloaded as per own desire and fired / chronographed. After having gone through all these tests, I, with the help of experienced members like LAGS and Ghazi sb, have reached certain conclusions and found out certain facts.

We established that there are few things in a particular ammo that can be changed if one goes to the manufacturer and guides him. There are other things which CAN NOT be changed unless the manufacturer discards the present system and adopts a new one....

For example.....

1. Quantity of propellant is no issue at all. It can be changed any time by the manufacturer. He does not need to do anything extra in that; just fill in less quantity. As you would have seen on page 2 of the thread, I just reduced the propellant quantity and reloaded them as per own requirement. So no problems here.

2. Primer set up, if he keeps using the Berdoxer kind of primers with floating anvils, CAN NOT BE CHANGED unless the manufacturer changes the type and starts using the correct pattern primers. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM WHICH CAN TURN OUT TO BE VERY DANGEROUS. The incorrect and non-standard dimension primer holes in the case can cause excessive pressures which could be very dangerous. The floating anvil could prove to be harmful for the barrel since it is made of steel. It can easily cause pitting in the barrel, specially the large size floating anvil that you have shown in BBF ammo. Sure that big floating anvil will travel behind the bullet and would always leave the muzzle. This size of piece of steel, travelling loosely in the barrel at a velocity of over 1500 ft/sec can cause serious damage to the barrel. So this is a big problem. This is what Ghazi sahib had to say about this phenomena...
Quote:
The steel wire used as the anvil gets shot into the barrel mostly as after firing, one finds one big hole in the case ( KBW discovered this and told me ) this means that some following bullets will meet this steel wire in the barrel and cause a big scratch or may be a bulged barrel will be the result as pointed out by KBW earlier and I have the same opinion about it.


3. The small diameter bullet is another serious issue on which WE CAN NOT DO ANYTHING unless the manufacturer starts using correct dimension bullets. The small diameter bullet, though ensuring an inbuilt safety due to excessive / inconsistent propellant filling, would never be accurate. More importantly, it can cause the Gas Blow By phenomena in the barrel. As per Ghazi sb....
Quote:
The under sized bullet will lead to ruining of the barrel due to GAS BLOW BY the gases which will escape around the bullet and act like a welding torch eroding the rifling in the barrel after some use.


So we should be clear about our focus and should not turn back to start point again and again. We should move forward by confirming / negating the observations / conclusions that we have drawn so far. Hence my insistence on providing me the information about the type of primer and bullet dia in CZ 75 ammo.

I have also requested other members to look for CZ 75 ammo elsewhere and send me a few cartridges. If that could be done, it will just take me one day in taking all measurements and another day, shooting them at the range. I am hoping and praying that CZ 75 ammo is not using this non standard Berdoxer kind of primer as well as a small dia bullet.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@KBW.. brother 6s asked a question and out of regard i answered it. I stand on the same position as Ghazi Sb left me with his words..
I already said I have 10 rounds of CZ-75 ammo and will surely test them on this Sunday with all the parameters such as OAL and Bullet diameter taken. fired casings saved.. and bench rest accuracy testing with my NP22.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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To further increase the knowledge base of this thread, here are some pictures of a disected local bullet.

Image

Image

Image

Notice the thick jacket of this bullet. It is .6mm to be exact.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Excellent input RC :text-bravo:

.6 mm is a very thick jacket. I was just wondering if they make a proper .355 bullet, will a .6 mm steel jacket not wear out the barrel earlier than normal?

Why are they making such a thick jacket?

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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The thickness of the JACKET, will have Nothing to do with Barrel Wear.
The metal it is made of will.
If it is copper, it will not WEAR the Barrel.
If it is Steel Jacket, it will wear the barrel. as it is the same hardness as the barrels steel.
The Jacket also has to be thick enough, that the rifling does not cut or groove all the way thru the jacket, and expose the core metal, if it is something hard like steel.

I have shot solid Copper, Lead, Aluminum and Brass bullets, with no signs of wear.
But the metal still has to be versions of these metals that is not Hardened, so the rifling can cut into the bullet as it goes thru the barrel.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Also.
Look at these bullets.
The sides are not very straight.
The bullet is more of a pointed Elongated Ball.
It is a cone shape on the front, then it tapers off to fit in the case.
Then there is a slight Boat tail or bevel at the base.
This design does not leave much BEARING surface to ride on the barrel, and stabilize the bullet going down the barrel.

IMO, this will Never be a consistant accurate bullet

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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While gun barrels are usually made out of hardened/tool/ordnance steel, bullet jackets are usually made out of softer mild steel, and should not create any undue wear in a barrel. I guess if you shoot 50,000 rounds of high-velocity a year, and never clean the barrel, you might have a problem ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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In my opinion, the jacket material seemed very hard as i slid a screw driver in the slot that i made to open the bullet up. It took considerable force to get it open. I would not like to use these bullets in any case.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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If these guys made a proper sized bullet, i can only envision many pistols with smooth bore barrels :mrgreen: and every gunsmith having quite a few blown up pistols and parts like triggers, hammers springs etc available in abundance. :whistle:

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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I don't think darra guys are using some very hard kind of steel for making bullet jackets. These bullet look like made of cast iron sheets which can not be harder than the barrel steel. Yes, as jonnyc say, if we fire thousands of rounds of this ammo, it might effect the rifling.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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I just Will Not shoot ANY STEEL or Iron jacketed Bullets out of any of my guns.
Steel CORE , Yes, But not steel Jacketed.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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But Larry, most of the Russian military surplus as well as commercial ammo that we get here is steel jacketed. This includes 9mm, 9x18 Mak, 7.62x54R, 7.62x39, all types of ammos. Even the NATO 7.62x51 bullets (Lake City, made in USA) are steel jacketed. The old Spanish 7x57 Mauser ammo that I shot from my rifle was also steel jacketed. Barnual 9mm ammo which is one of the favourite ammo of many TGF members is a also steel jacketed.

What to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ KBW
Are you sure it is Steel Jacketed, and not Cupro Nickel Jacketed that looks like steel, and a Magnet sticks to it because of the STEEL CORE
All my Lake City is copper Jacketed and steel core.
Same with the Russian 7.62x54

All the Spanish 7mm I had and the .303 as well as 8mm were all cupro Nickel jackets.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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LAGS wrote:
Are you sure it is Steel Jacketed, and not Cupro Nickel Jacketed that looks like steel, and a Magnet sticks to it because of the STEEL CORE
All my Lake City is copper Jacketed and steel core.
Same with the Russian 7.62x54
All the Spanish 7mm I had and the .303 as well as 8mm were all cupro Nickel jackets.
Well.....you have put a doubt in my mind as well :confusion-scratchheadyellow:

All these bullets are attracted by magnet. But I am not sure about the presence of steel core inside. Will have to dissect a bullet to confirm this :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ KBW
That's the spirit.
When in doubt, investigate.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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why do they put copper on the bullet? Just for the looks or some other reason? Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ six_shooter bro,

Below is what Larry stated a few posts above...

LAGS wrote:
The thickness of the JACKET, will have Nothing to do with Barrel Wear.
The metal it is made of will.
If it is copper, it will not WEAR the Barrel.
If it is Steel Jacket, it will wear the barrel. as it is the same hardness as the barrels steel.
The Jacket also has to be thick enough, that the rifling does not cut or groove all the way thru the jacket, and expose the core metal, if it is something hard like steel.

I have shot solid Copper, Lead, Aluminum and Brass bullets, with no signs of wear.
But the metal still has to be versions of these metals that is not Hardened, so the rifling can cut into the bullet as it goes thru the barrel.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Thanks Saif

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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The jacket is the perfect Hardness to engrave as the bullet goes down the barrel.
But it is softer than the steel core in a lot of bullets that the steel will hurt the barrel.
But the jacket is Harder than the LEAD in the core of other bullets, that will deform or stick to the barrel at High volocities.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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"But it is softer than the steel core in a lot of bullets that the steel will hurt the barrel."

Larry, this is unclear. Are you stating that the harder steel core will hut the barrel???


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