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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ Jonnyc
The steel CORE in bullets is Hard, and will Hurt the Barrel if it comes in contact with the barrel, because the rifling can not Engrave into the hard steel.
So they use a softer metal as Guilding to seperate the core from the barrel.
But even Softer steels will take its toll on barrels.
See , the Barrel is hot inside like you ran a Blowtorch thru it, thus softening the steel just a bit when it is being fired.
But it hardens back up when it cools.
But a HOT barrel Never gets softer than cold copper

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Uh....yes.....that's internal ballistics 101.
Your posting was unclear in that you implied that someone would actually load full-caliber hardened steel bullets without a jacket. However, they have been experimented with.....very unsuccessfully. And I still maintain that you would have to shoot 50,000 steel-jacketed rounds a year (or more) through an ordnance steel barrel to have any significant effect, and that would still take years to wear out a barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ Jonnyc
You would be correct as long as the JACKET Steel is Way SOFTER than the barrel steel, or the bullet is not full BORE Diameter , like some of the Local ammo KBW tested.
Then the bullet is only riding on the top of the lands, and is not having to be engraved by the rifling.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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HMR wrote:
Guys I dissected Shabbir Arms Company WCC copy round.
Few observations.
It was Boxer Primed.
Only Primer was fired on a thick piece of cloth. There was no metal strip / ring on cloth or in barrel.
I can't measure the exact diameter of the slug. I would request Saif for help in this regard. If the diameter is OK then its a good buy in 22 each .
This was posted in some other thread, however, since all discussion related to this subject has taken place in this thread so I thought it appropriate to reply it here. It will help other members in reading the background given in previous pages of this thread.

@HMR
This is a very important information. Thanks a lot for sharing.
If it is a "proper" boxer primer than its a very good break through. However, I feel inspection of the primer is the only way to confirm this. Not finding the metal piece on the cloth is not a sure method because if there was a floating anvil in this round, it would have popped out with tremendous velocity and there are chances that despite your efforts, it might have slipped out somewhere. It could have even have broken into smaller pieces if it was made of some softer metal.

Please deprime the case if you can and see if there is an anvil attached to the primer cup? You can deprime a single case with a long thick wire. If you find the anvil as part of the primer cup, it's a boxer primer. And if you just find a cup than it is a local made berdan primer in which they fit a floating anvil which I call a "berdoxer" primer, ie, a hybrid of berdan and boxer. If it turns out to be a proper boxer primer than we have many further options open to us. Please do post a few pics if you can.

I think Saif will help us out with the measurements of bullet dia. It should be .355" for a proper 9x19 Luger bullet.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Just received word that that elusive CZ 75 ammo is available in the market. Noor and co (Lucky star Saddar karachi) has around 3000 rounds in stock

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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ED bro there are many factories in KPK which are churning out local reloaded ammo. They are happy to stamp which ever brand demanded by the buyer on the head stamp. This may not be same ammo which was tested earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Which is why I plan on getting a sample box. I already have one from the previous lot that is at present also untested.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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ED brother
This review clearly defines the paramaters / aspects that a layman should keep in mind while buying the local ammos. Details are given on page 2 to 5 of this thread.

Despite all efforts, I could not test the CZ75 ammo but Atiq bhai confirmed it to me that this ammo also did not qualify the basic safety aspects which related to type of primer used , size of bullet used and quantity of propellant used, as discussed in this review.

Do Not go on hearsay / reputation. Check details and Stay Safe. If the bullet diameter is standard and primer / priming technique is correct than we can buy this ammo otherwise it's a BIG NO. Please go through page 2 to 5 of this review for details.

Stay safe.
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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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As a matter of fact KBW bhai. it was only after reading this thread a few times that I bought the sample box.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Rotorcrafts made a batch out of the locally manufactured rounds, by pulling them apart and reloading it with calculated measured powder, and using cast lead bullets. I did a test on them and the results were encouraging.

I will post results, but donno should I post here or in some other relavent thread?!? :think:

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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I think it would be appropriate to post the details here. It will be easier for the members to link old discussion. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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A couple of months back RC sent me a batch of reloaded local ammo to test out. And finally I did it! ;)

What he did was that he took apart the locally loaded ammo, left the primer intact, used his own Cast lead bullets 124gr, made from LEE Mold, and tweaked the same powder used in those rounds by the locals.

By "tweak" I mean trying different amounts of powder. All in all, a total of 9 batches of 3 rounds each (with increments of .2gr) were made to test functionality and other aspects.

Image

It was a great learning to see how to reach at a working load! I will now let the pictures do the talking

I used my DIY Pistol Handsome Rest for the tests. (setup can be seen below, showing the stove-pipe)
Distance was 20m

And here are the results

Image

Now the target ...

Image

The Stove pipe ...

Image

Really loved the whole process. Now that we have the bottom line workable load, we can tune to my CF's liking !!! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Now that's something very close to what I was looking for ultimately, when I started this thread. Great job MR and a very comprehensive report.

RC has proved that it can be done. Many of us are good at giving expert view but it's great to see someone doing the job and showing the right way to others. The functionality tests are now complete and it's looks ok. Now you can work upon improving the accuracy where you can play with the seating depth (please keep safe limits in mind), crimping and making sure that bullets used are of uniform weight, as far as possible. When I seating depth, please note that there is very little margin to play in 9x19 Luger.

MR,
you fired from the rest. Did you try to fire accurately or testing functionality was the only thing at the back of your mind and you did not bother where the bullets were hitting?
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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Thanks sir for the appreciation!

Well I did use to aim the 'rest' in the right direction before firing, but in the first few batches I wasn't even behind the handgun while pulling the trigger! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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I am so proud of you guys.
You did it.
You did some testing and in a very organized sceintific way that many can understand.
How did the fired primers look , and were there any signs of too much pressure on loads 8 & 9 ?
Were the primers backing out of the case a little bit in loads 1 & 2 ?

Now that the rounds fire, and didn't blow up, it is time if you can, shoot some thru a chronograph to see how fast they are actually going.
Or if that is not possible, do a penetration test to compare the different loads to some factory ammo.

But to focus your testing, IMO load 7 will be your Base line or Minimum load.
But what was the average load in the local ammo when you took it apart , and how consistant were the powder loads ?

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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RC
One observation brother. Gun functioned properly at 5.2 g. From here on, the next increment in my view should not have been more than 0.1 grain. A 0.4 grain increment from 5.4 to 5.8 is absolutely not advisable. It might have turned out to be safe but the procedure adopted is incorrect and not advisable. I just want to see you guys safe :)

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ RC
Brother KBW has a point, and sorry I missed that detail.
But Now you have a Base load, and since you have already tried the 5.8 and " if " you saw NO signs of primers flattening, then take KBW's advise and work up a few loads in the .1 steps from here on out.

Good luck, and very nice work.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Very good RC and MR. This was the logical thing to do, since primers and gun powder both are not available. `now lets see you guys improving the accuracy of your CF 98.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Well done RC and MR. I also like the ransom test apparatus.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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:text-thankyouyellow: Sir`s for your appreciation and constant guidance.

@KBW
Actually the batches were made in one go because it was not feasible to test one batch and make the other one and i must admit that i got a bit ambitious in the last two batches :) but please note that #9 is 5.6gns and not 5.8. Any how i had given strict instructions to Bro MR that if he felt uncomfortable in any way he must stop the testing and MR has a reputation of being a no nonsense, common sense type of guy.
I will check the primer flattening etc when i get the spent cases back. Also i am going to stick with the standard bullet seating and crimp that is advised by LEE for now. I will experiment when i get a real hold on my reloading skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ All:
The image with the report has been edited, pointed out by KBW. The difference between each batch was .2gr, not .4gr (between the last two batches), as was mistakenly printed before.

@ KBW:
As RC said the batch were made in one go, and tested later, in another city! ;)

I did inspect the fired cases for signs of over pressure and flattening of the primers (after firing every round). None were there, even in the last batch of 5.6gr. All the fired cases have been delivered to Pindi, where RC will further inspect and post his observations.

@ LAGS:
I did notice the primer a bit out of its pocket in the first batch (RC will confirm, once he inspects them himself), didn't know what to think of it. BTW, why does it come out in "less-than" minimum working loads?!


Saif wrote:
Well done RC and MR. I also like the ransom test apparatus.

Saif, its the "Handsome Rest" not "Ransom Test"!! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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@ M R & R C
A round that has too little power or that is underloaded will Back out the primer a tiny bit.

This can also be seen if you fire a Primed case with no bullet and powder in it.

So that is normal if your lowest load backed out you primer a bit.
That will tell you what the MINIMUM Powder you can ever use and still get the bullet to exit the barrel.
It is something in your testing that should be noted down just for future refferance.
But this will be listed as Minimum POWDER Load for that Bullet weight and that powder, as it will be different for other powders, and different weight of bullets.
The next noted powder level will be the load theat is the Minimum FUNCTIONING Powder load.
That is the load that functions 98% or better for every round you fire.
That will be your starting level for load and accuracy testing.

The Maximum Powder load is the hardest load to determine.
The easiest way to determine that is by the primers.
As the pressure nears the Maximum, the primer will start to show signs of starting to flatten out either at the radius where the primer cup meets the case, or around the firing pin Dent.
If you see ANY signs that the primer is STARTING to flatten out even a little but, STOP.
Then you are starting to over pressure the case.
Back your load DOWN by a few tenths of a grain until it stops flattening the primers, and that will be your MAXIMUM LOAD for that weight of bullet and that powder and primer.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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That is good explanation, :text-thankyouyellow: . I will try it as soon as i get some time.

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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This is such amazing knowledge to gain in just one thread, read every single word ..... Thank you ALL with contributions, eternally grateful. Conclusion I have gathered is that avoid Local Ammo at all costs.

One question I have (to fix the bullet dia) ... if & when it is time to talk to the local producers ... 99% purity copper is about PKR650 per KG (custom paid, NCP is not much above PKR500 per KG) in PK, easily sourced in large/small qty, and 1kg would give appx 134 of 115gr 9mm bullets tips. Could the manufacturers not be be persuaded to shift to full copper? China exports heck of a lot of copper to PK. For self reloaders here, is this not option you have considered, thus no copper jacketing required. Solid copper bullets by Horandy seem to have great reviews.

15 rupees a local bullet, gunpowder seems to be the same in most brands, primer is an issue but some seem to be okay and the rest can be fixed with improvisation? So let's reload with full copper bullets (around 5 rupees per bullet), costing us 20-25rs per bullet (instead of >60rs).

Not as simple as above, but surely something that can be done .. if we can get the primer right (be it in improvised one) ... 99% copper is readily available, and Lee bullet casting (6 molds) can be had for around $40 ..... we can designate someone here to reload for us, and we buy off for a margin, and it still won't cost as much as Chinese or S&B!

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 Post subject: Re: Locally Manufactured 9x19 Luger > Review & Range Report

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Verve wrote:
One question I have (to fix the bullet dia) ... if & when it is time to talk to the local producers ... 99% purity copper is about PKR650 per KG (custom paid, NCP is not much above PKR500 per KG) in PK, easily sourced in large/small qty, and 1kg would give appx 134 of 115gr 9mm bullets tips. Could the manufacturers not be be persuaded to shift to full copper? China exports heck of a lot of copper to PK. For self reloaders here, is this not option you have considered, thus no copper jacketing required. Solid copper bullets by Horandy seem to have great reviews.

15 rupees a local bullet, gunpowder seems to be the same in most brands, primer is an issue but some seem to be okay and the rest can be fixed with improvisation? So let's reload with full copper bullets (around 5 rupees per bullet), costing us 20-25rs per bullet (instead of >60rs).

Not as simple as above, but surely something that can be done .. if we can get the primer right (be it in improvised one) ... 99% copper is readily available, and Lee bullet casting (6 molds) can be had for around $40 ..... we can designate someone here to reload for us, and we buy off for a margin, and it still won't cost as much as Chinese or S&B!

Thanks for your comments brother. I am afraid the whole process is not as simple. I will take on the issues one by one.

:arrow: First of all, an improper bullet is not the only issue in local reloaded ammo. The primer is another serious issue, very serious infact. Compressed charge is another issue though with a proper bullet and an accurate filling method, it can be resolved.

:arrow: Now coming to the copper bullet. Few things needs to be researched in detail for which I don't have the answers yet. I am a reloader and I exactly know that their are no approximations in reloading. Every thing has to be exact. How ever, few aspects stand out.

:arrow: Lead and copper have different weights and densities. Lead is much heavier. I don't think if the bullet weight is kept same (115 grains), how much effect it will have on the size of bullets. I have no data available on that but I know the bullets will not be of same size.

:arrow: If the size is kept the same, the bullet weights will not remain same. In the same size, a copper bullet will most probably be lighter.

:arrow: Lee mould is for casting lead bullets and not for copper. Copper has a much higher melting point as compared to lead. The mould has not been designed for casting copper. Though I have casting lead bullets for many caliber, I am not sure about the moulding characteristics of copper because I have never casted copper bullets. No moulds are commercially available to cast copper bullets.

:arrow: Improvisation of primers is easier said than done. Even if we somehow make the primers, they will not be uniform and the cartridges will be inaccurate in shooting, to say the least. If the primer is not properly done, bullet doesn't matter. It will stay an inaccurate and dangerous ammo.

I am now sure about one thing that these local manufacturers should not be allowed to produce ammo, unless they have a proper license for which proper loading facilities are a prerequisite. They must use proper primers (even locally manufactured), proper propellant fillers & propellant, proper bullets and a proper arrangement for filling the loads.

regards

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