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 Post subject: Penetration Test Comparison> .357 Magnum & .38 Special

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These are the bullets recovered from the most recent penetration tests
Image
From left to right
.357 JHP - 5.5 " penetration
.357 JSP - 10.5" penetration
.357 LSWC - GC - 5.5" penetration
.38 Special 158 LFN - 4" penetration
.38 special 148 WC - 4" penetration
Image

Image
Image
S&W Model 27 with a 5" barrel

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Last edited by LAGS on Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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The wood didn't like them much - sorry I had to leave, my blushing bride was awake and wondering about me. :)


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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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The results were not anything to write home about.
But the 158 - JHP may have only penetrated 5.5"
The recovered slug tip had a NEW diameter of .515
The 158 JSP was impressive in the penetration department, and did deform the point, but no sizeable expansion.
Both slugs were shot at 1200 FPS and the lead SWC-GC at 1000 FPS
The .38 slugs were right around 850 FPS.

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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Clearly JSP is the winner. I understand these were handloads? No? All of them have same grains? Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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Thanks again LAGS for taking all the trouble to do these tests. This one, like the previous 9mm test, clarifies many things and opens up new avenues for further discussion.

At 1000-1200 ft/sec, 357 Mag seems to be performing more or less like 9mm and understandably so. I believe factory 357 FMJ has a muzzle velocity in the range of 1450-1600 ft/sec. I use 125 grain FMJ which travels quite fast. I think the penetration will be much more if these loads are shot at a higher velocity.

JSPs seems to performing better again. Luckily, I still have a box of S&B 158 grain JSP. :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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@ SS
Yes these were Handloads, and the two jacketed bullets were different loads, but the same volocity in FPS.

When you say the JSP was the winner, I hope you mean in the catigory of PENITRATION.
The JHP was clearly the winner in the Energy transfer department.

Wood is a very poor Medium for testing anything except penetration of bullets side by side in a like medium for penetration comparrison.
The problem is, with wood, the bullet is driven INTO the wood.
But the hardness of the wood is the same force on the sides of a bullet, which restricts the normal expansion of different types of bullets.
But the JHP showed that with 4" of penetration into a hard surface, the bullet went from a .357 to over a 50 caliber.
That makes one big hole, and a lot of trama.

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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Yes LAGS I meant penetration. JHP will cause more damage because of the expansion.

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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@ KBW
My .357 rifle is only shooting the 158 Jacketed bullets at 1550
And most loads out of the postol are around 1350 Fps.
I can get the lighter 110 and 125 Jacketed bullets to 1600 Fps but I suffer in range when I hunt with them
I hunt with both .357 rifle and pistol with the same load, and have found better KILLS with the JSP.
The JHP damages the meat too much, and is effected more if it hits bone.
But I think you guys are more concerned with a SD application, so the choice would be up to you.

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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@LAGS
Again thanks a lot for educating us. Comparing results of this test with 9mm penetration test, I see that amount of penetration is almost same. Would 357 mag be more lethal and cause more damage if the bullet weight is same or similar? (I am not talking of penetration, I am talking about damage).

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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@ Viper
The only way to find out if things are going to perform to your expectations is to test them.
As I do not have the urgent need to Optimize the ammo for SD application, and I use my ammo to HUNT with, our needs will be very different.
I could go on and speculate , and predict all kinds of things about weight, Vs Volocity,Vs bullet design Vs Barrel Length.
But it doesnt mean squat until it is put into practical application, based on ones needs.

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 Post subject: Re: .38 special and .357 mag penetration tests

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LAGS wrote:
@ SS
Yes these were Handloads, and the two jacketed bullets were different loads, but the same volocity in FPS.

When you say the JSP was the winner, I hope you mean in the catigory of PENITRATION.
The JHP was clearly the winner in the Energy transfer department.

Wood is a very poor Medium for testing anything except penetration of bullets side by side in a like medium for penetration comparrison.
The problem is, with wood, the bullet is driven INTO the wood.
But the hardness of the wood is the same force on the sides of a bullet, which restricts the normal expansion of different types of bullets.

But the JHP showed that with 4" of penetration into a hard surface, the bullet went from a .357 to over a 50 caliber.
That makes one big hole, and a lot of trama.


Valid point LAGS.

Can someone here checkout and explain whether we can use Jelo / Jelly (edible / example the Rafhan one) as a substitute for gelatin ballistic gel?

Found a couple of online recipes for Jello / Jelly and some other substitutes, but the question is.... Will these produce results close to those performed on Gelatin?

http://www.technicalmercenary.com/blog/ ... stics-gel/

http://www.ehow.com/info_8643013_substi ... c-gel.html

We can start a new topic to discuss this.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> .357 Magnum & .38 Special

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@ SA
You can use Jello, Or Jelly, Or even Custard.
Custard is basicly just Corn Starch mixed with water.
It is a thick Liquid, until it is hit by and impact, then it becomes a semi solid, and then back to a liquid.

None of the items we are going to use for testing will be Equil to Ballistic Gel.

But even just Plain water in a container will show you something.
And if you thicken that water up with Dirt, you will get better results.

It is not what you are testing your bullets into, It is the TESTING into ANYTHING that should be your focus.

When is Pumpkin or Mellon in Season and plentyful ?
You can still eat them after you shot them, If you havent Blown them into a million peices.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> .357 Magnum & .38 Special

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LAGS wrote:
These are the bullets recovered from the most recent penetration tests
From left to right
.357 JHP - 5.5 " penetration
.357 JSP - 10.5" penetration
.357 LSWC - GC - 5.5" penetration
.38 Special 158 LFN - 4" penetration
.38 special 148 WC - 4" penetration


Can somebody define & explain the following terms?
JHP
JSP
LSWC
GC
LFN
WC

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> .357 Magnum & .38 Special

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Sorry Huzaifa
We were just talking in Gun guy terms.
Let me Expound for the masses.

JHP - Jacketed Hollow Point , Copper jacket with lead core and a hole in the nose to help expansion.
JSP - Jacketed Soft Point. ( can be either Round or flat soft point ) Copper jacket with lead core and tip is exposed lead to help expansion.
LSWC - Lead Semi Wad Cutter ( Cast Lead ) Kind of a Cone shape tip with a flat point
GC - Gas Check. ( copper seal on the base of a Cast lead bullet )
LFN - Lead Flat Nose ( Cast lead bullet ) Rounded nose with a Flat tip.
WC - Wad Cutter ( Cast lead, totally flat front Target Bullet )
RN - Round nose ( the shape of the bullet point, either cast ot Jacketed )
FMJ - Full Metal Jacket. No exposed lead ( Usually round nose, but can be flat point also)
FN - Flat nose or point
HP - Hollow point, Lead or jacketed, that has a concave hole in the tip to help with bullet expaansion.
BT - Boat Tail base on the bullet. Usually a Long range rifle bullet.
LRN - Lead round nose, cast bullet with a round nose.


A Jacketed bullet is a copper Jacket filled with lead, and can be driven faster than a lead bullet.
A Lead bullet is just that, No copper jacket, ( except for maybe a copper Gas Check seal on the Very Bottom of the bullet )

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> .357 Magnum & .38 Special

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@ LAGS: Thanks brother for detail answer. Great :text-goodpost:

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> .357 Magnum & .38 Special

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@ Huzaifa
I hope that this answers some of your questions , and if you need further explanation of the proper use for each type of bullet , please ask.

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