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 Post subject: Penetration Test Comparison> 9mm Luger

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Today I got the chance to test fire some of my 9mm bullets into the test stand I had built.
The Boards were as follows.
1" thick chipped board, followed by 5.5" of Fiber sound board, then another 1" chipped board and another 5.5" of fiber board.
All shots were taken at 10 feet.
The penetration was as follows.
124 FMJ - 6" @ 1050 FPS
115 JHP - 5.5" @ 1125 FPS
124 LRN cast - 6" @1100 FPS
124 Plated HP - 5.5" @1050 FPS
100 JSP - 7" @ 1200 FPS
Image
These are the recovered bullets from left to right
100 SP, 124 FMJ, 124 Cast RN, 124 Plated HP, 115 JHP
Image
Entry holes


Image
Back side of chipped board set at 6"
Image
I would say the 100SP was the winner
It penitrated the furthest, and the energy was visable in the fiber boards 1.5" past the point where the bullet stopped ar 7"

As far as bullet Deformation, I saw the most in the 115 JHP and the 124 Plated HP
The 124 FMJ showed no deformation, and the 124 Cast did very well with good penetration and did flatten out considerably.
The 100 SP did show some deformation but little real Expansion.

The only problem I have had with the 100 gr. JSP, is the rounds overall lenght is shorter ,and doesnt feed reliably out of all of my 9mms.
So I use the 100 gr. SP Bullets loaded for my .380 auto.
Image
Side view of the crate.

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Last edited by LAGS on Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:56 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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Sense only half of my boards got penetrated, I may reverse them and take it down to Casa Grande Wednesday, and see the differance between .38 and .357 Magnum.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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There ya go. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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Now this is what I was waiting for. A comprehensive test which does clarify many things and at the same time, opens up many fresh avenues for further testing. Were all these handloaded ammos or there were any factory ammos as well?

LAGS, few things......
    - Its very encouraging to see the results of 124 grain LRN bullets. I was not expecting this much of penetration with a cast lead bullet. Was it a hard lead alloy something like 5:10:85 of antimony, tin and lead? In any case.... it had good penetration and reasonable expansion as well. How would you now rate it as a SD bullet?
    - Penetration of JHPs is also impressive but so is their price. In Pakistan, some of them cost 8 times the price of a normal FMJ and most of them are around twice the price. Is that much cost worth paying is the decision that one has to make. Please see the expansion and penetration both.
    - 100 JSP has penetrated the farthest but I am not sure these bullets are available in our part of the world. I have never seen 100 grain 9mm ammo in Pakistan. But if I come across one, I know what it can do.

It is tests like these which clarify certain myths that our dealers have created such as "Premium Handgun SD Ammo" for which one has to pay 5-10 times the price of normal FMJ ammo. The dealer tells us and we believe in it and start telling the same to our friends as well. It spreads out. It is only after test like these that we can actually understand the potential of these ammo viz-a-viz their prices and than be in a position to make a well informed decision. Thanks a lot LAGS for all the trouble that you took to educate us. :handgestures-salute:

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ KBW
The Cast lead bullet was actually Wheel weight metal, with a BHN of like 9
I have Harder lead mixes like 92 -2 -6, with a BHN of 15 and some Linotype metal with a BHN of 22
But the 9mm cant push the bullet fast enough for better expansion , so I save those metals for the rifles and the .357

All of these were Handloads, thats why I didnt post it under Ammunition Reviews.
And the loads would not be of much importance for your comparisson other than the weight of the bullet and FPS.

I really do hope that you guys come up with something LIKE my testing procedure to test your Available ammo as well as the Local stuff you can get at the market.

The 100 gr. bullets for the 9mm are not a common load, but I wanted to give you an idea of what extra volocity does in comparrison to bullet weight.

I personally would use the Lead bullets for SD.
If you look at the deformation of the back side of the chipped board at 6"
It is clear to see the amount of energy transfer each bullet had, and even the 100 gr. that penetrated THRU the board at the 6" distance.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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Thanks LAGS. I understand this you did at the range? If the same board is used for .357/.38 that would give a good idea of 9 mm vs .357/.38 performance.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ SS
In california, I had built a test firing chamber in my Back yard, and would test these type of things at home.
But today I just went for a drive out into our desert.
Wednesdays test will give results that can be compared to the 9mm, and I will use the boards set up in the same order for that reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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I would suggest that in this thread, we restrict ourselves to various brands / types of 9mm only. Comparison of 9mm with .357 Mag and .38 Special will open an absolutely different discussion. So lets thrash 9mm in detail here and for .357 Mag and .38 Spec or any other ammo, we may have a different thread later. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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No problem, I will open a new thread as soon as the results come in.
I really do agree that more of you are interested in the 9mm results, sence it is more commonly used for SD.

Tell Furrukh to get his shotgun so you guys can have a Pig Party test on the 9mms

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ LAGS
Excellent Test for educating

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ Canik
Similar tests can be done with any kind of material.
I have even used Sacks of grain, to check penetration and bullet expansion.
Damp sand in a bucket will also work

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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Many of you had asked if I was going to be testing the 9mm - 147 grain bullets.
I do not shoot them in my 9mm , so I did not have any to compare.
But lets do a Virtual comparrison based on the performance of other bullets.

Tests showad that the Faster and lighter the bullet , the more penetration you got.
The heavier the bullet the more Impact or energy transfer you got.

So, A 147 grain bullet is Heavier than the heaviest bullet tested, But it also shoots SLOWER than the heaviest bullet tested.
MY, prediction would be that a 147 grain bullet will provide More Energy transfer on impact, but far less penetration.

These would be great for shooting METAL Targets , where you want to knock the target down, but penetration is not a concern.
But being a slower bullet, it is not being driven fast enough to Expand the bullet for additional energy transfer.

To give a comparrison.
Lets say the 147 gr. is a Socer Ball
And a 124 gr is a Cricket Ball.
Both balls will leave a Bruise.
But a socer ball leaves a large bruise on the surface.
But a cricket ball leaves a small bruise on the surface, but you feel it deep in your body.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ Larry bro:

Thanks for your valued contribution. This thread will go a long way. Having limited knowledge on ammo I can identify the FMJ and JHP. I know that SP is soft point but am unware of the 100 SP type. From your tests it is evident that the 100 SP is the winner proving me earlier point that the JSP is better than FMJ in expansion and better in penetration than the JHP. Can you please share the details of the 100 SP that you were using so that I may compare and contrast it with the JSPs available in my city.

Been extremely busy with work lately lately, if things go well I intend to buy my Mossy with the relevant accessories this coming week.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ Furrukh
You are correct that the JHP is a Jacketed Soft Point, and the 100 means the weight of the bullet.
The Bullets I was using were Winchester that were meant for reloading the .380 Auto.
You do not have as wide of a selection of available Ammo and different loadings as I do over here.
So , a JSP in any ammunition just might not be available to many of you.
But then again , it might, but it is not common, and no one knew what they were, so would just buy what everyone else bought.
The most common loading for the SP ammo is in the Revolver loadings like the .357 and .44

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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Larry

If I'm not mistaken Sellior and Bellot is easily available globally. If its not too much to ask could you test out 9mm of S & B in the FMJ, JSP and JHP categories........

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ Furrukh
I am restricted in the ammo I test, Not because of Availability, but Because I have been out of work for over three years, and do not posess the extra money to BUY any New Ammo.
I started this whole thread to help inspire you guys to do your own testing, and not act as a testing base for others.
I am willing to Help you as much as I can, but there comes a point where you will have to do some of these things on your own.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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LAGS wrote:
I am willing to Help you as much as I can, but there comes a point where you will have to do some of these things on your own.

+1 LAGS. You have already done a great deal and have shown us the way. All members of TGF should be thankful to you for that. Now we should take this whole thing further to whatever extent we want to.

Furruk bro, I think tests by LAGS amply prove that 9mm ammo has enough penetration capability that a civilian would need for SD. However, if we want to know the precise penetration capability of various ammos than we have to test them all one by one. Why don't you carry out test with S&B ammos and let us know the result. :)

regards

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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I agree with LAGS. It would be nice if members could carry out such testing on the various brands using same standard equipment as LAGS has done. It would definitely add to our knowledge base on penetration of various brands/types. 9 mm is a very potent ammo as has been shown.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@LAGS
Very comprehensive test. Now it is quite clear that 9mm has sufficient penetration power. Thanks for your time and effort Sir. :handgestures-salute:

What test we can conduct to ascertain the damaging power of a round, ie, how much damage it will cause to the target.


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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ Larry and KBW,

I agree. I will try to chalk out a plan and share the same here and will go ahead post getting a green signal from you gents. Right now acquiring my Mossy is number one in my things to do list :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration test comparison, 9mm

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@ Viper
Just shoot different bullets into a gallon plastic bottle filled with water.
You will see a definite differance in what it does to the plastic jug.
A Body, Human or animal is 90% water isnt it.
Shoot from 5 feet or more, or you will get wet.
Or you can use Watermellons, they work real well.


Or just shoot a BG, and have him write a review. Or his widdow can write one if he declines.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> 9mm Luger

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@LAGS
Sir very informative report. If you dont mind can you tell me what is fiber sound board? I know about chip board but no idea about fiber sound board. I was just trying to estimate the stopping value of the objects which you used in your test. Thanks :greetings-waveyellow:

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> 9mm Luger

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Fiber Board is similar to the material used in commercial Acoustic ceiling tiles, or sound deadening Board they install on walls.
I guess the best comparissons would be like a Dart Board, or Tack Board surface, or even Cork Board.

Another way to describe Sound board for comparrison is it is like a 1/2" thick peice of Felt Fabric, or a sheet 1/2" thick made our of cotton Balls pressed together.
See the picture of the 100gr.PS at 7". That is Fiber board.

Layers of carpeting would give a similar effect, as would layers of CardBoard.
I forgot, you can use layers of Drywall wall board, or even stacks of Newspapers.

All it has to be is the same material for all your tests , so you can compare results to other bullets.
My main criteria for testing material is something CHEAP, or that you can get for FREE.
All the materials fall into those catigories, if you use your imagination and a little time.

Heck, you dont even have to build a wood crate like I did.
Any cardboard or wood box like a produce crate will work just as well.
Image
The boards just slide into the crate from the top, and can be lifted out to see your results.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> 9mm Luger

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Very professional way to address the penetration matter LAGS. Thank you. You have really been selfless in your devotion to this hobby and knowledge sharing, be it time, or other resources.

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 Post subject: Re: Penetration Test Comparison> 9mm Luger

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LAGS are the boards very close to each other? or is there some space in between them? Also does it matter if we leave some space between them? I intend doing this test on some of the brands available here, like 2Z, 311, Sellier & Bellot etc. Why have you shot them at 10 feet? Thanks

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