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 Post subject: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Yesterday at the range, one of our young member Usama brought a box of local 9mm ammo being sold in the market under the name American Eagle.

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We shot these in Baikal Viking MP446 and Taurus PT99. The accuracy was so-so ...... a member capable of making a 5 inch group from 25M was making a 8-9 inch group with it.

Primer quality was very inferior and we observed that the load was also inconsistent.

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The Viking shot these through without any hiccups. However, we had one stoppage in the PT99... an FTExtract.

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I know I know, I have to get a better camera. I'm workin on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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The stuck case is the one which had the primer hole burst in reverse direction. My (humble) analysis was that the round was over powered, too much for the case and primer to handle. The case expanded quite a bit and got jammed in the chamber, causing the extractor to lose the grip. The case material (which seems more like aluminium) may have added to the extractor woes.

One of the extracted rounds has a damaged case. Further, in the last visit, Usama after having fired one shot stood shaken (pretty much like Fahad Khalid after being 'slapped' by the 357 snubby!). He said he felt a much higher recoil/jerk in that particular shot, with this very ammo. That also raised concerns, but damaged cases and bulged/burst primers were the deal breakers for this brand.

Over to the experts.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Don't you guys think its unsafe to fire this ammo ?
It is of great educational value for me and other members but I humbly suggest that if an ammo is found to be inconsistent then it must not be used further.
Experts your opinion please.


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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Saif wrote:
He said he felt a much higher recoil/jerk in that particular shot, with this very ammo. That also raised concerns, but damaged cases and bulged/burst primers were the deal breakers for this brand.


@Shariq bro, yes it is unsafe in my view, hence the deal breaker comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Saif wrote:
Saif wrote:
He said he felt a much higher recoil/jerk in that particular shot, with this very ammo. That also raised concerns, but damaged cases and bulged/burst primers were the deal breakers for this brand.


@Shariq bro, yes it is unsafe in my view, hence the deal breaker comment.


Got it. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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SA, a very useful report.

What was the primer type, berdan or boxer?

Secondly, were the cases locally made or imported (reused)?

Thirdly, were the bullets FMJ, ie, copper jacket and lead core. Is it possible for anyone of you to weigh the bullet.

I think I will have to go to market and buy a few bullets of local ammo :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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1) Single hole

2) Reused - Imported: Winchester, Federal, etc.

3) FMJs Copper jacketed.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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SA wrote:
1) Single hole

2) Reused - Imported: Winchester, Federal, etc.

3) FMJs Copper jacketed.

That's nice. So finally, we have found a boxer primed local made ammo. LAGS, are you listening..........

Now, is it possible for you to take some clear pictures of the primer area, showing the firing pin marks?? Would appreciate if that is done.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Very good report on the ammo.
Like KBW said , it is worth some of our reloader members to open up some of this stuff and try to isolate the problems with the ammo.
It will make a very good teaching tool. You will get to play detective if sorts.
But until more research is done, I would be reluctant on firing this ammo in my gun.
But after investigation, you might be able to rework the ammo or if you can get it at a VERY GOOD price, salvage the components for your reloading.
If the cases are Boxer style primers, where are they getting the Boxer primers, or are they using Berdan primers in a boxer case.
That could be the problem ?

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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LAGS wrote:
........... or are they using Berdan primers in a boxer case.
That could be the problem ?

Really!! but how could they put a berdan primer in boxer case?? The boxer case will not have the anvil???

Now I am very very interested in seeing the primer pics (firing pin strikes). In those very dim and out of focus pics, I could feel very deep primer strikes, almost like a hole but I may be wrong.

SA, please, please, please, for God sake buy a good camera :pray: :pray:

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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A berdan primer MIGHT go off without an anvil. I just am not sure.
But it well warrants investigation.
But the flash hole may be too large for the berdan primer, thus causing pressure to go back and rupture the primer.
See what you can come up with ?

Remember, for good pictures you need to go on " The CAMERA Forum "

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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This is what an original American Eagle Box looks like
Image
And yes , that price is correct $ 10.99 US for .38 specials.
But that was three years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Another reason for the primers to be punctured, or heavy recoil, could be due to IMPROPER HEADSPACING.
It the reloaded casings were over trimmed, or they were over crimped like with a roll crimp.
It could cause the headspace in the chamber to increase, and these type of problems could be incurred.

When you guys are ready, we can discuss the evaluation of the ammo in the reloading thread in more detail.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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LAGS, I am anxiously awaiting details. However, without clear pics or without detailed feedback from the eye witnesses, whatever we talk would be mostly assumptions.

A boxer case loaded with berdan primer!!!! This is very very interesting.

All those who were on the range and saw this ammo, please participate.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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In the mean time, Will SOMEONE find out more about the manufacture "Super Star"
Is it a real company, where are they, and do they make ammo or sell components on request.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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I am not sure but most probably, it will be a ghost company with few guys reloading the ammo somewhere in the backyard. I done see any telephone number or address on the packing.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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I have a full box of this particular ammo lying in my Gun Cabinet. I'll take it to my office and take some good resolution closeup snaps with a digital camera and post the snaps here.

The strikes were atleast twice as deep and prominent (and sometimes, it seemed as if it went through all the way) as compared to the primer strikes on S&B or POF ammo primers.

The Super Star name is a ghost company, as is normally the case with reloaded local ammo.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Thanks for the information SA. :)

SA wrote:
The strikes were atleast twice as deep and prominent (and sometimes, it seemed as if it went through all the way) as compared to the primer strikes on S&B or POF ammo primers.

Now this is an important clue.

LAGS, berdan primers in boxer cases might be true. However, there were no misfires reported. In my view, number of misfires should have been much more due to the absence of anvil. What do you say?

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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There were no misfires during this range trip. But two trips earlier, there WERE misfires. Usama and Saif will file in with more details here regarding the frequency and in which weapon these occurred. I vaguely remember two misfires in every ten rounds on that day.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Without an anvil could account for the deeper firing pin strikes.
But if you took the old anvil out of a spent boxer primer, and put it under a berdan primer, which you might be able to get, it may work just fine.
It sounds like you need to call " Ghost Busters " and locate these guys.
They seem to have a handle on where to get stuff, or make their own.
This could help you emmensley

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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If you want to find your Ghost.
Dont chase down the ammo, That stuff is always a secret, Find out who printed the BOXES for them.
That will lead you right back to them.
There is no, Printer/Client Privledge like there is with Doctor/ Patient and Lawyer/ Client.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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What i got from the smell of the powder was that it has a slight tint of sulphur in the powder and some NOT normal smell.
I may be wrong but I can clearly know that the out of the four cartridges that I smelled after picking them up they had different smell. The recoil had a HUGE.. i repeat HUGE difference. same as between shooting a .32 short and .38 shot from the same gun.
plus i noticed that the firing pin wasn't going straight, it has slipping marks; as if it was moving when hitting the case. The primer cap was very soft and probably thats why it got punctured with higher pressure working as a catalyst. Plus the case being turned fatty, but i didnt see any scratch marks when case was pulled out; maybe SA may shed some light on it. lastly didnt see how much pressure it took to pull that brass out, if it was stuck then it takes hell a lot of pressure than normal to extract it after the FTE pull, though harder to know unless done slowly, BTW: the recoil was heavy in that shot for sure..
Plus wish the barrel was seen right after the shot to see the residue or a clean patch was drawn from there to see what happened in barrel as well as with a bore sighter.
I may sound like a forensics guy but these are my two cents to the million dollar question. WHAT really happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Thanks for your input AtiqMassan sb, I'm sure this info will be helpful for KBW and LAGS.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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A BULDGED or expanded case IS NOT GOOD.
DO NOT Shoot this stuff until we have time to tear apart some rounds and see if in fact they are all loaded uniformly, or it is at least a safe powder.
The Ghost may not have a powder scale and is just guessing at the powder charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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There were misfires even on this trip. Second shot got the job done on a misfired round. This was common for Taurus 92 and CZ pistols. The case that got stuck, after about 1 minute, got extracted without much notice of strength.

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