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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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@ LAGS & KBW,

Here's what you guys were waiting for:

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In the given circumstances, this is the best I could do. Hope it serves the purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Thanks a lot for the effort SA and surprisingly, nice and clear pics too :mrgreen:

@LAGS
I can see following............
    - All cases are boxer and different brands have been used. Varying condition of cases could be an issue.
    - Many of the primers show high pressure signs where as some of the primers appear to be showing low pressure signs as well. Inconsistency in powder filling.
    - One of the primer seems to be ruptured. Could be because of excessive pressure or absence of anvil or forceful firing pin strike or a combination (most probable)
    - Use of berdan primer is not confirmed. I have asked SA to deprime few cases and uploads the pics of primers.
    - Proper resizing also looks questionable though most likely sizing was done as most of the rounds chambered properly.

Do you see anything else??

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Was able to take one snap and the camera batteries went Kaput! Recharging them now. Till then, uploading the one pic I could take. Will try to take the rest after this meeting which is about to start.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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These are berdan primer, for sure. So now it is confirmed that these goofies were using berdan primers with boxer cases. As far as I know, the size and dimensions of berdan and boxer primers as well as their respective primer pockets are not exactly same. I wonder how these guys were fitting berdan primer in boxer primer pocket. Isn't it dangerous :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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The rounds chambered alright in CZ TS, but had ignition issues, some required double strikes. Some went right first time. Any resizing issues would have popped up immediately, but none as such. The user experience (Usama) is also of very high recoil in some rounds, normal in other.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Ok, now we know the problem.

They are not using the correct primers, and I would be suspect of all of their reloading operations.

Without an ANVIL, the firing pin is not stopped and the pin punctures the primer.

Also the primers that are not punctured, do show pressure signs, like metal mounding up around the firing pin dent like a little volcano.

If a Case is trimmed TOO FAR, then the headspace in the chamber increases, and the case will buldge or blow up.

A 9mm headspaces on the case mouth.

If I were you I would find this Ghost.

First, shake his hand and thank him for giving us a chance to learn how not to reload ammo.

Then beat the crap out of him for almost blowing up your gun.

This is a very good review and I can see it will benifit a lot of members, by teaching them what to look for.

The ammo is worth further investigation by our reloading members when they have time.

And please spread the word to the ammo and gun dealers that this ammo is not safe.

That may prompt them to put you in contact with the Ghosts, where you can buy the parts, and assemble them your self.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Great............ things are clear now.

I think its worth a try checking few other local ammos as well. Would be interesting to see what they do. But for that, we will have to buy a robust local made pistol as well........ just in case :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Thanks LAGS and KBW for sharing your knowledge with us and making things so easily clear for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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And Saif you shot these from your TS :angry-fire:


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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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@ KBW
You tear down the ammo first, and look for potential problems.
If none are found.
THEN you download some, and test fire that, and then work back up to what it was before.
Consistancy in the loading is a big factor.
Because, if you test a box, and it is not consistant loadings, How far off specs will the next box be.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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@Shariq
8 rounds were fired. Had to try out. Left after the third misfire. No high recoil or other issue in the rounds I fired.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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LAGS wrote:

They are not using the correct primers, and I would be suspect of all of their reloading operations.


Almost all local ammo manufacturer's in my view dont know anything about 9mm reloading except some .30 ammo
which rarely gives problems otherwise are safe to use in local or Chines tokarev's

LAGS wrote:
Then beat the crap out of him for almost blowing up your gun.


I would definitely but if only its manufacturer was in same city :x
Shariq wrote:
And Saif you shot these from your TS :angry-fire:


aside from Ts these local rounds were also used in Cz999 and Viking and they went through them withouth any hiccup .. :roll:

LAGS wrote:
A BULDGED or expanded case IS NOT GOOD.

DO NOT Shoot this stuff until we have time to tear apart some rounds and see if in fact they are all loaded uniformly, or it is at least a safe powder.
The Ghost may not have a powder scale and is just guessing at the powder charge.


I'll be trying to return all the ammo left with me and yes You are right bro they usually dont have proper equipment with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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It would be nice if the Ghosts could be educated by us if possable.
If they are doing this for a living, then it makes sence that they should want to sell a good product.
All it takes is the wrong person getting hurt and NOBODY will Buy there ammo at ALL.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Saif wrote:
@Shariq
8 rounds were fired. Had to try out. Left after the third misfire. No high recoil or other issue in the rounds I fired.

I experienced two Failure to Feed properly on TS using POF 1Z ammo 1996 lot yesterday. It is good that reloads did not suffer any FTF.


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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Guys, why are you out to damage your guns? I had a similar experience which is documented here viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1183 and since then I have given up on local ammo. In my case though, the primers weren't ruptured but FTEs were experienced besides on big bang in the end. My suggestion, please stay away from local ammo. And please, I wouldn't ever load this ammo in my TS (if I had one) let alone fire it.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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six_shooter wrote:
I wouldn't ever load this ammo in my TS (if I had one) let alone fire it.

Saif please pay heed :character-oldtimer:


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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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This is one of the most educative threads that we had on TGF and I thank SA, Saif and Usama for taking up pain to upload the pics and furnish other details.

We should not blend anything as good or bad unless we try it and inspect it. This local ammo was not good enough as it was reloaded by people who knew little about the whole thing. However, I have seen quite a few other local ammos which are good enough for plinking. They are not the most accurate but they are not dangerous either. And off course, they are quite cheap. We would have never come to know about all this had these guys not tried this ammo on the range.

Unless we try, we wouldn't know. Yes, we may first try these ammos in guns like Baikal Viking which have a chamber and barrel far stronger than an ordinary 9mm pistol or may be a local copy of Beretta 92 etc.

If one has some understanding of primers, propellants, cases etc that he can open 3-4 rounds from that lot, inspect the case, primer and weigh the propellant etc. It would give us some idea about that ammo and if it is a very low quality reload, it would be fairly evident after opening the round. I will do it whenever I get time.

And if one comes across a local ammo with better primers and propellant, here we go. :ugeek:

regards

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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@Shariq, noted bro, thanks.

@KBW sb
I doubt there is any other local ammo except POF which comes with a good propellant, unless it is coming from the "K B Wee Loading Factory"!

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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A very revealing report. Thanks for the effor, SA bro :text-bravo:

I was just wondering that if our ammo manufacturing guys, who might be uneducated people, are educated on some of the a basics as discussed in this thread they might come up with an ammo which is acceptable to shoot and not dangerous.


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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Viper wrote:
A very revealing report. Thanks for the effor, SA bro :text-bravo:

I was just wondering that if our ammo manufacturing guys, who might be uneducated people, are educated on some of the a basics as discussed in this thread they might come up with an ammo which is acceptable to shoot and not dangerous.


+1 Viper, most of these guys are either uneducated and do this out of experience being taught by their "Ustaads" also they do not care much about quality. If this thing is done by some educated person with lots of good business acumen I am sure it will be beneficial to all. Also this is hand-loaded ammo, if done on a massive scale would require machinery and hence investment.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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six_shooter wrote:
Viper wrote:
A very revealing report. Thanks for the effor, SA bro :text-bravo:

I was just wondering that if our ammo manufacturing guys, who might be uneducated people, are educated on some of the a basics as discussed in this thread they might come up with an ammo which is acceptable to shoot and not dangerous.


+1 Viper, most of these guys are either uneducated and do this out of experience being taught by their "Ustaads" also they do not care much about quality. If this thing is done by some educated person with lots of good business acumen I am sure it will be beneficial to all. Also this is hand-loaded ammo, if done on a massive scale would require machinery and hence investment.

I don't think they would need a sort of ammo plant as such. The scale on which most of these guys are reloading is quite small actually, may not be more than a 1000 rounds per day. That much quantity can be easily managed with a progressive press which wont cost them that much. The main thing is that these guys need to learn the basics of priming, case preparation, bullet casting, charging etc, establish some standards for the ammo that they are reloading and than enforce quality control measures. I agree that with some education and common sense, they can comeup with ammo which is far better.

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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@ KBW sir my knowledge on progressive press prevents me from commenting on the subject but if they make good ammo on a massive scale and its good (Public demand is more) then seeing the cost people would want more, hence they may need more machinery. That is what I meant to say. Lots of ifs and buts, btw. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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If they want to produce ammo at "massive" scale than they wont be hand loading it :)

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 Post subject: Re: Range Report > Desi (Local) American Eagle 9mm Ammo

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Hand loading on a PROGRESSIVE PRESS is still hand loading.
The Hand loading part comes on when you take the time to work up your loads, and then Mass Produce them.

But for the commercial guy, he has to come up with a load that doesn't blow up and is at a general spec. to fit ANY gun of that caliber.

But Pictures I have seen over the years.
Your local LOADERS are using improvised tools at best, sitting on the floor of their shed.
There is nothing wrong with that, and I commend them for their work.

It is just with a little Knowledge and CARE, I am sure they can produce some safe and functionable ammo.

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