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 Post subject: Range Report > 9x19 LUGER 'MKE' Turkish

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I came across some 100 9mm Turkish Bullets with a head stamp "MKE". Wanted to check these in my 9mm handgun, so took it out and shot a few. To my horror I had the very first "Failure to Fire" in my handgun! The handgun which never faced this problem in the 1500 or so rounds it has fired to date. Upon inspection I saw that the primer was hit by the firing pin firmly, but it didn't go off.

I'm now skeptical about this ammo and will try out more that I have with me and also share the results.

The said ammo is 115 gns, brass cased, berdan primed cartridge.

Here are a few pics

The left one is a fired case, the right miss-fired!! Note the firing pin impression!!
Image

The miss-fired cartridge
Image

Shot the following target from 15m. Although it would seem that the accuracy is reasonable, it miss-fired once in five rounds! The figures might get better after further testing, but so far its a 20% failure rate!! :lol:

Firer - MR
Handgun - CF 98
Ammo - MKE, Turkish 9mm
Distance - 15m
Technique - Standing, Both arms, Un supported

Image

MR

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@ MR
Did you try to put the FTF back in your gun ans try it a second time ?
The primer strike looks strong enough, but it could just be a bad primer.
Pull rounds like this apart and do some investigation, and save the brass, bullet and powder for future reloading if it is a brass case.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@ LAGS:
No sir, I didn't put the round back and try it a second time. I was more interested in taking pictures of it! :D

Now, should I try it again in my handgun or just pull it apart to investigate the matter??

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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I would try to fire it a second time, if you have a FTF then pull it apart.

See, since it was your first round you put in your gun, you might have had some oil or dust on the sholder of the chamber that cushioned the firing pin strike.
It could still be a bad primer, but it still may fire.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@LAGS, can you please elaborate if a FTF is dangerous in any way? I mean any chances of it going off after it has been pulled out of the chamber? Thanks in advance

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@ six_shooter
If you have a primer that Cooks Off there could be a problem.
If I have a FTF. I wait 5 to 10 seconds before I open the action.
I have had Very few Cook Offs in all the time I have been shooting, and it was always with very old military surplus ammo.
If you have weak striker or hammer springs, it could contribute to more FTF or Cook Offs.
Another contributing factor could be having the wrong or too short of firing pin protrusion, or excessive headspace problems.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@ LAGS thanks for the info. I read somewhere that you should wait at least 30 seconds with the weapon pointing towards the target in case of a FTF. May be that's just to see if the primer is slow in burning. Thanks again.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Exactly, that is a cook off, 30 seconds would always be best, but I have never seen one cook for that long.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Pin strike is deep and well defined. I dont think firing it again would be of any use. Accuracy is quite decent.
I request our Turkish members in particular ór any other members who have used this Ammo to share their experience.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@ LAGS:
That is exactly what I did ... kept it pointing towards the target area for 10 seconds before racking the slide again. Still I put the round away from me in sand, till the end of the session.

The other thing is, that it was not the "first" round the miss fired. It was the "fourth", rest were firing and cycling just fine. So the dust theory may not be applicable! (I do pre-clean my handguns before a range session! ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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hmmm..... another berdan primed 115 grain FMJ. :think: Looks to be a nice ammo but so many misfires are not acceptable. Thanks for sharing MR :greetings-waveyellow:

Haven't seen this one in market very often. How much does a cart cost??

regards

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Dont condem an " AMMO " for FTF issues, Unless you have done extensive testing in several guns.
There are so many reasons for a FTF that I couldnt name them.
It doesnt have to be just one item either. It could be a combination of factors the all add up.
I have shot some very cheap ammo in some of my guns with no problems, and friends shooting the same brand got FTFs Or FTE issues

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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I don't know if I can do 'extensive testing' or not, cause I just have a 100 of these. But I will have to fire them to get a more clearer picture.

But I'm not ready to accept that the reason was other than the ammo. I have fired POF (Mk 1Z and 2Z), Chinese (white box and red box). Russian Wolf (grey and green) and a few other brands at the range, and I've never had "this" particular issue with my handgun.

As Shariq pointed out, the strike on the primer is quite deep, and as shown in the pic above with a fired case, there is not much difference. I'll re-fire the round and see what happens! :think:

@ KBW:
Sir, I got it as Mil Surplus, in place of POF 2Z! Same rate! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Some guns just like certain ammo better than others.
For example, if you have a snug chamber, and you are shooting mass produced Mil. surplus ammo that is made to fit looser mil. chambers.
You could have feeding or FTF issues due to the cartridge not seating all the way, and then upon firing it is forced that last little bit into the chamber, cushioning the firing pin strike just enough to prevent it from getting the Snap needed to set off the primer.
But the same ammo fired in another gun may fire just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Okay ... I only have a limited supply of these rounds. But for the quest of knowledge I'll try them in two handguns (sorry I have just two :( ). My CF98 and a Sarsilmaz B6 (Turkish)!

I hope the Turkish-Turkish combination works out well! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Are you testing the ammo, with the prospect of buying more in the future?

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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LAGS, I got the ammo very cheap, and may buy in the future as well. (until I start re-loading ;) )

But the main reason is to let my TGF brethren know about its viability and reliabilty, for their future purchases! :D

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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I look for them in Khi market. Haven't seen it with any dealer.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Thanks for sharing MR. You're back in form :)

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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Those two firing pin strikes appear very different to me. Ammunition, especially military, is manufactured to be safe an not too sensitive. For whatever reason, I think you had a light strike and that the round will fire on a second try.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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JonnyC, with all due respect, those two firing pin strikes look very different because one got fired and one didn't!

The impression on the fired case (left) looks prominent because the back pressure of the case pushed out the dent, from around the pin strike area. The un-fired case has just the pin impression, and whole of the primer is bent inwards, hence the actual pin impression seems light.

Now please have a look at the pic below, both the carts have fired (from different handguns), although the impression on left seems very light!
Image

The left one was fired from Sarsilmaz B6 and the right from the CF98. The difference is in their firing pin systems! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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I think there are lot many variables, like LAGS said. Its not just the ammo, its the handguns as well as is clear from the pic above

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@MR
The cartridges seem different to me, if you take a closer look around the circumference of the primer area. If you agree that they are different, I think this adds one more variable in the equation, which will not give a true comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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@ MR
The two recent pictures of the casings clearly shows the one on the left shows signs of higher chamber pressure.
It is no where near dangerous levels , but being flattened out more, it shows there was more force against the back of the case.
This could be due to many factors, and can not be evaluated just by two casings.
But if you fired 20 rounds from each and they looked the same, I would venture to say, one had a tighter or rougher barrel than the other.
The striker method would have little to do with pressure signes, or flattening of the primer.

This is a very good example of why the same ammo will work differently in two different guns.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm Ammo Report - 'MKE' Turkish

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six_shooter wrote:
I think there are lot many variables, like LAGS said. Its not just the ammo, its the handguns as well as is clear from the pic above

Maybe, and maybe not. The last picture is of rounds fired with different handguns, agreed ... but the topic rounds were fired from the same handgun. The fourth round miss-fired, and it shot two more after that (without any field stripping or cleaning)

Saif wrote:
@MR
The cartridges seem different to me, if you take a closer look around the circumference of the primer area. If you agree that they are different, I think this adds one more variable in the equation, which will not give a true comparison.

You're right Saif, they are different, they are from different lots!

For you I have two more pics:
Mostly shot from Sarsilmaz
Image

Mostly shot from CF98
Image

LAGS wrote:
@ MR
The two recent pictures of the casings clearly shows the one on the left shows signs of higher chamber pressure.
It is no where near dangerous levels , but being flattened out more, it shows there was more force against the back of the case.
This could be due to many factors, and can not be evaluated just by two casings.
But if you fired 20 rounds from each and they looked the same, I would venture to say, one had a tighter or rougher barrel than the other.
The striker method would have little to do with pressure signes, or flattening of the primer.

In my opinion the flattened primer might not be due to higher chamber pressure but may be due to firing pin design.

The Salsilmaz has an "Inertial Firing Pin", meaning that its much shorter than the total length between the slide rear (from where it is visible) and the bolt face.
Upon firing, the hammer strikes the pin, which uses Inertia and Kinetic energy gained from the hammer to strike the primer! As soon as it strikes the primer, it goes out of the way before the slide starts to move back. The pressure in the chamber then flattens the primer impression! But that's just my opinion ;)

It just maybe due to lighter firing pin spring! (which the inertia type pins have)

On the other hand, the CF98 has a full length firing pin (it is visible from the hole in the bolt, when pressed from hammer side), and remains in contact with the primer till the slide starts to move back!

I will however, try the MKE ammo again in both these guns, before reaching to any conclusion!

LAGS wrote:
This is a very good example of why the same ammo will work differently in two different guns.


Fully agreed!! :D

MR

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