THE GUN FORUM

THE GUN FORUM

Exclusively for Serious Gun-Enthusiasts and Outdoorsmen
 
It is currently Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:05 am

All times are UTC + 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 274 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
I am really at loss with words on where to begin with. There's a lot I want to say but can't. Some of you might find this laughable, but if the purpose of this forum is improve and learn than I may not be very wrong. I went to the firing ranges today with two handguns, a CF 98 (9mm) Pistol, and a Webley (.38/200) Revolver. (The Revolver has more or less been like a trophy in my house because it belonged to the old man and on his passing away was inherited by me. So I wanted to try it out at the ranges.)
The whole experience can at best be called as pathetic (seeing the other members shooting skills) and deplorable at worst. But I would really like to know what's going wrong over here. I am a newbie, so please bear with me. Any suggestions, remarks, quips, statements, joke or critique would be appreciated, Ahem! :-) Guys I would really like to improve my shooting skills, and be able to get good results. Actually the aim is not to hit the bull, no way. I know this kind of static target shooting is meaningless in a real situation where the adrenaline rush alone is enough to make one loose his marbles. (I know it because I have been mugged once, long time back, didn't carry a gun then)

What I aim to achieve: To be able to shoot accurately at a subject/target up to 25 M.
Help me out folks!!!! :angry-banghead:

The CF 98 was fired from 5, 10, 15 and 25 M respectively.
Ammo used: POF 2Z, lot 96
Standing Position with both hands clasping the gun. SA
Weather: Clear, no wind, temp around 30 C.


Image
Carnage at 5M :clap:


Image
Massacre at 10 M :lol:


Image
Slaughter at 15 M :greetings-waveyellow:


Image
My personal best , so far :handgestures-salute:


Image
Butchery at 25 M :naughty:

Now about the Webley.
Ammo used : .380 MK II, FIOCCHI
Fired while standing , both hands clasping the gun
Single Action Fire
Weather: Same as above
Distance: 15 M


Image

So guys, brothers and shooters, now its your turn to say something...anything. (I am already pulling my hair out)
P.S. Oh , by the way I experienced two FTFs during this fire with the CF98. Still haven't been able to figure out why. Haven't fired more than 400 rounds from my gun till now.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Master at Arms

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 7421
Location: Islamabad, Pakistan
six_shooter,
First thing, please do not at all feel shy of posting your target pics if you want to improve. We all have passed through the same stage, nothing disgusting or embarrassing about it. Please see your PM for details.

About the FTF, was it a failure to feed? If it was a failure to feed than it does happen in the rotating barrel mechanism cum double stack mag of CF98 at times, specially with 2Z. There could be other reasons also like not gripping the pistol properly or a loose grip.

regards.

_________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
Many thanks for the support. I believe it was Failure to Feed, somehow I did not notice it. Your feedback will help me greatly, many thanks again.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Master at Arms

Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:02 pm
Posts: 5253
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Bro your is not bad at all for not so frequent shooter. You''ll improve a lot if you pay heed to KBW's instructions.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Site Admin

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 7950
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
six_shooter wrote:
I am really at loss with words on where to begin with. There's a lot I want to say but can't. Some of you might find this laughable, but if the purpose of this forum is improve and learn than I may not be very wrong.


And you are NOT wrong at all. That's exactly the purpose of this section of our forum "To learn and improve by sharing our experiences"

In addition to KBW's professional suggestions and advice and those from other senior members, who I'm sure will also jump in to guide you, I would suggest that you please take out sometime and go through basic marksmanship related threads in our Competitive Shooting and Marksmanship Basics Section ( Link viewforum.php?f=9 ). I strongly feel that after going through the inputs from our senior members there, you'll be able to yourself improve in a lot of areas.

Please keep sharing your progress with everyone so that we can continue to monitor it and advise you accordingly.

By the way, your first results are much much better than my first results. The words deplorable and pathetic would never have done justice to mine.

_________________
Parcham-e-sitāra-o hilāl, Rahbar-e-taraqqī-o kamāl, Tarjumān-e-māzī, shān-e-hāl, jān-e-istiqbāl!, Sāyah-e-khudā-e-zu-l-jalāl

Bolt actions speak louder than words

Sometimes adding 175 grains of boat-tailed diplomacy speeds up Peace Talks


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
Thanks SA, will post results in a few days time. KBW's tips were really helpful. Am pleased to know that my first results are better than yours, lol.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

TGF Expert Panel

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:32 am
Posts: 5541
Location: Arizona, US
I really cant say that you are doing anything WRONG. You are hitting the target.
I dont know how much experience you have shooting, or how much you have shot these two guns.
All I can say is to practice, starting from 5 to 10 meters Max. Off a rest.
Take your time and dont expect perfection right out of the gate. Stay at those distances until you reach a level of proficiency that you are satisfied with.
Stick with one brand of ammo until you master it, and then try other brands or loads.
I know ammo isnt cheap, but it is the only way to get good.
Practice, Practice,Practice and then practice some more.
To save ammo, fire fewer shots, and take your time between shots. I shoot three shot groups and then analize my results.
Three shots will tell you how you are doing better than a whole magazine. Also a larger target at close ranges will record ALL your shots, no matter how bad they are.

_________________
Larry - a Gun Smith


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
Many thanks LAGS, am working on it.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Site Admin

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 7950
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
@ six shooter,

Do keep sharing/posting your targets here. Any range visit this weekend?

_________________
Parcham-e-sitāra-o hilāl, Rahbar-e-taraqqī-o kamāl, Tarjumān-e-māzī, shān-e-hāl, jān-e-istiqbāl!, Sāyah-e-khudā-e-zu-l-jalāl

Bolt actions speak louder than words

Sometimes adding 175 grains of boat-tailed diplomacy speeds up Peace Talks


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
@SA Weekend was busy, real busy, with guests off course :-) . Hopefully some shooting expected tomorrow.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Sharp Shooter

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 541
Location: Alaska
I read an article recently that said that we need to learn to let go of our past shots. Anything we could do to control them is now done. We should learn what we can - but what matters most is the next shot - and the next as we grow in our abilities as shooters.

I know I beat myself up a bit when I have a rough day at the range - shooting skill seems to degrade so quick when I miss a few weeks shooting. But I try my best to focus on my next shot.

_________________
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The Two Towers)
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. (Unknown)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Marksman

Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:25 pm
Posts: 249
Location: Chania Greece
You have already taken the most difficult step which is accepting that you need assistance. Rest is going to be easy :)

_________________
ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
Went to the Range today. But before I write anything about the performance let me first thank you all for the support and useful tips, specially KBW :handgestures-salute: who went great lengths explaining the Do's and Dont's. There has been some improvement, which to me is encouraging. Let me summarize the whole thing.

What I was told to concentrate on:
1. Concentrate on the front sight after aligning the sights and target.
2. Pull the trigger slowly and let the bang surprise you. (It actually did)
3. Take a deep breath, exhale 2/3 and then fire when you are relaxed.
4. If you are unable to fire within 10 seconds, drop your arms, start again.

What I did:
1. Besides all other things like proper grip on the gun, the posture while standing etc, I did pay attention to the useful tips by KBW, as stated earlier.
2. Did a lot of dry firing practice as mentioned in the following article http://www.corneredcat.com/basics/flinch.aspx in order to get rid of the Flinch.
3. Got a 22" x 22" target prepared for firing on it from close distance, so as to see where actually the rounds are landing.
4. Read the Shooting Techniques section on TGF, and of extreme information was Shooter's article viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13 Becoming a Marksman with a Pistol.

The Results:
Distance: 10 M
Ammo: POF 2Z
Firing Position: Standing


Image
Four of the rounds landed close to each other, the fifth one is still not traceable :-)


Image
That's about 4"


Image
Don't know what went wrong here. May be I got too excited


Image
In this case two strings of 5 rounds each were fired. Got four hits first time and three second time, with the fifth rounds landing way out of the target. I had a friend watch me all the time, for the darned Flinch. As per him I did not flinch. I observed that the rounds were landing below my aim. This could be either because of Flinch, or my handgun (CF 98) shoots a little lower. Or maybe something else?? I think next time I need to aim a little higher just to see if this is actually because of the handgun. In all the pictures the rounds have landed a little lower than the aim. Any suggestions/ comments please?

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Master at Arms

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 7421
Location: Islamabad, Pakistan
six_shooter, I think there is a significant improvement. Please don't expect wonder at the start, be patient and just keep repeating the drill again and again with concentration.

Before I comment on the targets, two things. One, you must shoot within 7 seconds. More than that, your muscles would be exhausted, hands might tremble and it would be difficult to keep focus. Second, do not dry fire your pistol too much. Please read LAGS posts in the handgun thread. Many of us used to advocate dry firing but no more.

Now coming on your target. The first target on green sheet has a decent group. The group would further improve if you fire on a plain sheet, with no marking on it whatsoever.

The other two targets, I suspect that you are trying too hard to balance your front sight in the center of the bull, ie, trying too hard to get a perfect sight picture. Resultantly, you are not paying much focus to trigger control (though you might be thinking that you are). Please forget about the bull, just roughly place the front sight in the center of black area than focus on front sight and pay all your attention towards trigger control. Dont bother much if your hand moves or trembles, let it be. Just pay attention towards trigger control and you would see that your bullets would stay withing 5 inches at 10 M. PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ACQUIRE A PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE EVERY TIME BY MAKING EXTRA EFFORT TO PLACE FRONT SIGHT IN THE DEAD CENTER OF THE BULL. YOU WILL FLINCH. And also, don't concentrate on the target, just concentrate on trigger control and focus on front sight. Don't breathe and DON'T FOCUS ON THE TARGET.

I would also request Ghazi sb, LAGS, Lupus, Carl and other experienced shooters to comment.

Best of luck for next session. :text-bravo:

_________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Marksman

Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:25 pm
Posts: 249
Location: Chania Greece
See, I told you so :) Good group considering the circumstances.

Very appropriate advice by KBW. The only thing where I would differ is DRY FIRING. Do it. Lots of it. But use SNAP CAPS.

_________________
ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Sharp Shooter

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:31 pm
Posts: 541
Location: Alaska
I think I'm quoting LAGS here, but one thing I think makes a lot of sense is that it's not that "practice makes perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect." The idea is that there is no rush because rushing yourself can emphasize bad habits.

_________________
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The Two Towers)
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. (Unknown)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Master at Arms

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 7421
Location: Islamabad, Pakistan
Crete wrote:
See, I told you so :) The only thing where I would differ is DRY FIRING. Do it. Lots of it. But use SNAP CAPS.

Crete bro, I am not finding the thread where LAGS very comprehensively explained the ills of dry firing. I also used to dry fire a lot but I have stopped doing it because of two reason..........

1. Damage to the gun, as explained by LAGS

2. Secondly, as per my personal experience, dry firing was not affecting any improvement in my shooting. I experienced this when I was going through a bad patch during last three-four months. I actually started improving when I stopped dry firing. In fact, dry firing gave me false confidence of operating the trigger which just did not work when I was actually shooting. It was too easy to dry fire and I never used to feel the creep in the trigger which was the cause of problem in actual firing. Therefore, now I am of the view that its only actual live firing that assists a shooter to achieve desired skills. And as LAGS mentioned in one of his posts, dry firing is just like swinging a baseball bat in the room and thinking that one is practicing the shots.

Yes, may be if one is absolutely a novice, dry firing might help a shooter to understand the basics of trigger control, grip, sight alignment etc. But when a shooter has attained certain level of proficiency, only actual firing will make the difference. Just my .02. I would request other experienced shooters to give their views on the issue :)

_________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Site Admin

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 7950
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
@ KBW,

Here you go Sir.

Dry-fire and Pulling Trigger on fired brass
http://www.thegunforum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 33&start=0

_________________
Parcham-e-sitāra-o hilāl, Rahbar-e-taraqqī-o kamāl, Tarjumān-e-māzī, shān-e-hāl, jān-e-istiqbāl!, Sāyah-e-khudā-e-zu-l-jalāl

Bolt actions speak louder than words

Sometimes adding 175 grains of boat-tailed diplomacy speeds up Peace Talks


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
Many thanks KBW, Crete and SA. The suggestions are well noted. At least dry firing is out for me. I have now decided to go to the ranges on weekly basis, and rightly so there is no substitute to the real firing. Thanks again.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
After no dry firing and lots of psyching on trigger control and focus on the front sight I went to the range today. The results have been very encouraging. I personally think after today's shoot I have gained a lot of confidence. The results are pasted below. Please do give your feedback, and I am REALLY GRATEFUL TO EVERYONE AT TGF for the support. This could not have been possible with out your valuable comments, advice and support.

Ammo: POF 2Z
Distance: 10 M
Firing Position: Standing
Time: 1145 am


Image
Not very good but close enough


Image

This really is impressive

Image
Here's one more

Image
This is impressive, except for the one that got away

Image

A close up of the same

After firing of a plain sheet and getting good results I fired two strings on a target from the same distance, the results weren't at all good. I guess I focused too much on the bull again and instead lost trigger control.



Image

Image

A couple of questions:
1. In all of the above photos there is one shot that always lands way below the others, in my case it was always the first round! Was it that I am flinching on the first round and then concentrate on the others?
2. Why are the results better in case of a plain target as against a marked one?
Any feedback or comments would be most appreciated.
Many thanks in advance

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Master at Arms

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 7421
Location: Islamabad, Pakistan
First of all, let me say there is a significant improvement. Some of the target are really well shot. Just continue practicing the same way dear and I already see another bull's eye shooter in the making (rather already made) :)


Now coming to your points..........
six_shooter wrote:
A couple of questions:
1. In all of the above photos there is one shot that always lands way below the others, in my case it was always the first round! Was it that I am flinching on the first round and then concentrate on the others?
2. Why are the results better in case of a plain target as against a marked one?

This is what I think....................
1. You need to develop your concentration and bring it up to the mark right on first bullet. You are perhaps not that focused / prepared on the first shot.

2. You are shooting well on the plain sheet because all you focus is on trigger control and front sight tip (the two cardinal aspects) and you are not bothered much about the target which is a big one and has no aiming point. When you shoot on a proper target, perhaps you are un-consciously putting too much effort to get a perfect sight alignment in the bull, in the process taking your focus off the front sight and trigger. Just concentrate on two cardinal points and I am sure there would be great improvement in the coming days :text-bravo:

_________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
Many thanks Sir. I am really happy and somewhat flattered, really I owe it to you and the TGF members, once again thanks.
I agree I wasn't very focused on the first shots and hence the bad results. The points are well registered and will be taken care of in the next session. May I please ask if you can give me a digital copy of the target that you use, I mean if you have one. The one I am using I downloaded from the net and it is 7.5" in diameter besides it doesn't show points/numbers etc, after sometime I plan on shifting to the target for assessing my results in terms of points. Many thanks.

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Master at Arms

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 7421
Location: Islamabad, Pakistan
six_shooter wrote:
May I please ask if you can give me a digital copy of the target that you use, I mean if you have one. The one I am using I downloaded from the net and it is 7.5" in diameter besides it doesn't show points/numbers etc, after sometime I plan on shifting to the target for assessing my results in terms of points. Many thanks.

six_shooter, just write 25 yards Standard Pistol Target on google and you would get many downloadable target options. Download a better resolution PDF version. :)

_________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Moderator

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 4721
Location: Islamabad
ok sir thanks

_________________
Nostalgia kills, sometimes.... so do Guns :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Six_Shooter's Misfires

Site Admin

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 7950
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
http://www.6mmbr.com/targets.html

The SR21NRA target on the link above is the 25 meters Standard Pistol Target. You may download it from here.

_________________
Parcham-e-sitāra-o hilāl, Rahbar-e-taraqqī-o kamāl, Tarjumān-e-māzī, shān-e-hāl, jān-e-istiqbāl!, Sāyah-e-khudā-e-zu-l-jalāl

Bolt actions speak louder than words

Sometimes adding 175 grains of boat-tailed diplomacy speeds up Peace Talks


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 274 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 11  Next

All times are UTC + 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL -
phpBB SEO