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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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@ NG,

Please have them picked from either my place or I can deliver it to your place tonight sometime.

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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NG- Bro, I have seen the best of the best get limited with the capability of their weapons, but you are an exception who pushed the weapon beyond its capibility to match your gifted talent. You are truly an amazing shot. Proving the fact that its the man behind the gun that matters. Best of luck next week.


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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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ASCCL SUNDAY TRIP 11-05-2014

Sorry for the late update...this is last week's Sunday trip results.
Trying to get my head around the POA along with correct alignment of front and rear sights.

Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................165/200

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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ASCCL SUNDAY TRIP 18-05-2014

Got on range at 8a.m. sharp and carried out shot by shot analysis to determine POA. Turns out that the 6/7 junction is a better option after all, and with the correct sight alignment, and focus on front sight it might just be a settling point for me. Will continue with this POA and practice religiously...!

Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................166/200
Image


Need after addressing this target, I realized grip needs attention, so I opened up the thread and went through all the basics again.
Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................164/200
Image



Getting the grip sorted out, and focusing on other basics with followings results. Now that POA is finalized, it will become easier to improve...
Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................172/200
Image

Need a lot of improvement, and a lot of practice. Wish I had more access to ammo and a closer range to do so...

Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Sir KBW - you were right once again, and the POA at 6/7 junction looks like the solution. Please can you comment on the following observation...

:arrow: The height of the target

:arrow: The stance:
:arrow: In Natural POA, the shooter aligns him/her self to the target.
:arrow: Is there a way to fine tune the Natural POA just by pivoting after alignment has been acquired?
:arrow: At times, I have noticed that if I measure the distance of the gun from the ground, it varies from string to string in centimeters. The reason why I managed to observe this difference is because while aligning the front and the rear sights with the target, at times the slide is visible between the two sights. Which means that either I am not standing upright while acquiring the POA, or the neck is leaning forwards, which is making the difference between the height. If the height has nothing to do with the results then I need not bother any further with this, but if height does play an important role then please point out the greys.
:arrow: While taking the stance, I also noticed that the direction of the feet has effect on the results. In todays shooting, after determining the Natural POA, I had actually marked my feet on the floor and then carried out 4 strings to eliminate the stance error. But when I did my final 4 strings, I had noticed that just changing the direction of the feet fine tunes the Natural POA (I say Natural POA because as soon as I raise the gun, I am able to acquire the target faster with aligned sights).


Thank you.
Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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TXshooter wrote:
NG- Bro, I have seen the best of the best get limited with the capability of their weapons, but you are an exception who pushed the weapon beyond its capibility to match your gifted talent. You are truly an amazing shot. Proving the fact that its the man behind the gun that matters. Best of luck next week.


Brother TX, that is a bit too flattering. Thank you for your appreciation and kind words, I look forward to the big day :)

TOP GUN - sounds very attractive and eye catching. Glad to be a part of the very first Top Gun Event.

Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Good shooting NG. How was the wind today? You will do better at Karsaaz IA. Atmosphere is much better for a shooter than ASCCL.


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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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This is fairly good shooting. :)

NaveedGhani wrote:
Score........................166/200
Image
I can't be sure because this is a non-standard target. In my view, 20 shots have been wasted on a non-standard target. It would have been better had you used the reverse, ie, blank side of this target. At least that would have given you practice in grouping. It looks like the best target of the day, better than 172 target, but I can't be sure as the rings are not standard size. The scoring that you have done on this target does not apply as the rings are not standard size.

Are you anticipating recoil? Please have someone look at you when you are shooting.

regards

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Thank you KBW. I'd like to say that I was way too early at the range, and the idea was to get accustomed to the 6/7 junction POA. So, aiming at this junction I was trying to eliminate this particular thing from my results - in other words, to get comfortable in my own self that 6/7 junction will suffice for me. This early, at the range, the ISSF targets were not available, and I did not wanted to waste valuable time where I could do a shot by shot analysis. Had I been shooting at a blank paper, I wouldn't have been able to determine my POA. But then again, as you mentioned that the ring size is different and hence the POA will get effected when I shoot on the ISSF, but this difference will only be in terms of scoring.

The shots landing outside the black zone were mistakes that I had identified and rectified on the spot. It was rushing into the shots (to save time, so that I can complete my strings before anyone shows up at the range, because when they do, I will not be able to do a shot by shot analysis).

POA, once determined I can easily focus on rest of the areas. Areas identified were grip and focus on front sight, need to work on this more and more. For some reason, the houge grip that I have on my CF-98 tends to rotate on the frame, which I realized was effecting my grip. Looking into ways of getting this grip fixed in such a way that the gun does not get effected and the grip sticks to it and does not slip while shooting.

Another very important factor - a good night's sleep...!!! (need to achieve this, at least for the shooting-day eve)...

Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Wajeeh Hasan wrote:
Good shooting NG. How was the wind today? You will do better at Karsaaz IA. Atmosphere is much better for a shooter than ASCCL.


WH - bother it was a pleasant day today, and the wind was good too. It was not as fast as was seen earlier this month but was just enough to keep the heads cool :)

Well, need to get on Karsaz Range to get the look and feel of it properly...

Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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NG, I still can't comprehend how you can practice 6/7 POA on a target that has both 6 and 7 rings in white colour :confusion-questionmarks:

Is there something else to it?

regards

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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KBW wrote:
NG, I still can't comprehend how you can practice 6/7 POA on a target that has both 6 and 7 rings in white colour :confusion-questionmarks:

Is there something else to it?

regards



Darn! why didn't I see that!
Can I call it being overly focused on the black and white junction??? feel like a jarhead!!! only joking.

No seriously, I had not noticed that the 6 and 7 both are in white. Which clearly means that 20 rounds were wasted...sigh.

Moving on, the next two targets I kept my aim at the 6/7 junction. The first target highlighted grip issues, which I tried addressing in the second target. Will practice more on the ISSF target with all the above in mind. Please do point out anything further that I need to keep an eye out for.

Cheers...and thank you :handgestures-salute:

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Good going NG. You will be the one who is going to set some examples here. CF 98 was just an all rounder gun and it's going to be proved as an accurate range gun.
Of course credit goes to your dedication.
Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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There's another thing I have been thinking on, and I think Sir, KBW, you would be the best person to discuss this with. This has nothing to do with how I shoot, or how I should be shooting...its just a question that has been in my mind for a few months now. It might also be something on mind of other shooters too and they dont ask, so I am taking on behalf of all of them....If you allow me please...

:arrow: Every time a shooter goes live with ammo, he is advised not to anticipate recoil and aim for a surprise break...

:arrow: Every time a shooter goes live with ammo, he is advised to acquire Natural POA and break the shot within 6 seconds and if not then lower the gun and take a fresh shot.

Now, if the shooter takes the aim it is not possible to keep the exact desired POA aligned for more than a second, and the gun tends to revolve around the desired POA (in a matter of mm radius). For very experienced shooters it might go up to even 2 seconds, but even in that case the shooter knows that he/she has to break the shot as soon as the alignment is met. When the shooter raises the gun to acquire POA, trigger already comes into play and a gentle squeeze is continuously being applied on the trigger.

How does a shooter not anticipate the shot when he/she knows exactly when to break it i.e. when the alignment is perfect (of both sights with the POA)? Or, let me put the question this way. How does the shooter eliminate anticipation in that 1 second when exact alignment is met? I think, it would be worth actually defining what anticipation really is, and how it effects the POI so that the answers to the question may be understood properly.

If you feel this is irrelevant at this point in time, then I'll bother you after the competition :) let me know either way...

Cheers, and thank you...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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NG,

The error is very obvious.
The shooter FIRST aligns the sights with the POA, as best as he can and THEN shifts his focus on front sight tip and starts squeezing the triggers with a constant pressure. HE IS NO MORE FOCUSING ON POA BUT ON FRONT SIGHT TIP and keeps squeezing the trigger with constant pressure, till the trigger breaks. He is so focused on front sight that he comes to KnoW about breaking of the trigger with the blast / recoil of the gun AND NOT BEFORE THAT. That is surprise break.

No shooter in the world can keep the sights perfectly still on the POA all the time and IT DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. If the sight picture is INCORRECT, that is a serious flaw but if the sight picture is correct and it's only the front sight tip which is slightly shaking, it does not matter. Why do you think a shooter is asked to focus on the front sight tip and not on the target and squeeze the trigger with constant pressure while he is focusing on FST?

When a gun is fired, the barrel moves up and then comes down and shooter feels an instant recoil. This is the routine action of a gun. Sometimes, a shooter unknowingly activates this sequence himself before it actually takes place naturally. ie, he himself moves the muzzle upwards in anticipation of a shot being fired or in anticipation of a recoil (which will be a natural action when the gun is shot). Hard focus on FST and surprise break helps avoiding this.

regards

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Excellent - this clears up one thing....for sure :). I think everyone in the TGF team should go through this post and then read it once again..!

Now, while the entire focus is on the front sight regardless of the shaking of the front tip on and away from the target, with some shooters this is more and with others this is less. Considering the sight picture being flawless, and the shooter is getting a surprise break every time, is there any exercise or routine that would minimize the shaking of the front tip or circulating of the front tip on and around the POA? I understand that the POA is not in focus anymore, but still while focusing on the front sight at times the aim goes a bit too astray off the POA.

Sir, there is a reason why I am asking these questions today. In my third target today, the very first string I landed first three shots in bull and the 4th was 12 o clock in 8 and 5th was 6 o clock in 8. Each shot, I was rectifying my POI and only thing I was possibly able to extract was the fact that when the shot broke, the front and rear sights were aligned exactly as they were in the last three shots, but the front tip was not on the exact junction of 6/7. Was hoping to get any tips if possible of keeping a good steady hand at the time of FST focusing.

I am absolutely grateful to all the time and help you provide. Couldn't have achieved everything that I have without it...

Thank you.
Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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NaveedGhani wrote:
Excellent - this clears up one thing....for sure :). I think everyone in the TGF team should go through this post and then read it once again..!

Now, while the entire focus is on the front sight regardless of the shaking of the front tip on and away from the target, with some shooters this is more and with others this is less. Considering the sight picture being flawless, and the shooter is getting a surprise break every time, is there any exercise or routine that would minimize the shaking of the front tip or circulating of the front tip on and around the POA? I understand that the POA is not in focus anymore, but still while focusing on the front sight at times the aim goes a bit too astray off the POA.

Sir, there is a reason why I am asking these questions today. In my third target today, the very first string I landed first three shots in bull and the 4th was 12 o clock in 8 and 5th was 6 o clock in 8. Each shot, I was rectifying my POI and only thing I was possibly able to extract was the fact that when the shot broke, the front and rear sights were aligned exactly as they were in the last three shots, but the front tip was not on the exact junction of 6/7. Was hoping to get any tips if possible of keeping a good steady hand at the time of FST focusing.
NG
Refer to the highlighted portions of your post.
:arrow: You don't do any exercise to keep the FST static on POA. You focus on FST and when you focus hard, it appears static to you even if it is actually shaking, slightly.
:arrow: When you try too hard to keep the FST static on POA, you end up with a flier most of the time.

What are the conditions when shooter shoots a flier?

On most occasions, it is due to extra effort that a shooter makes to keep the FST still on the POA. During this process, he shifts his concentration from the most important aspect, ie, trigger pull and achieving surprise break to keeping the FST static on POA. Flier usually result due to following:
:arrow: Bad trigger pull, ie, NOT ACHIEVING SURPRISE BREAK. The shooter either flinches or anticipates.
:arrow: INCORRECT SIGHT PICTURE. ie, the FST is not centered properly in the rear sight slot.
:arrow: Involuntary breathing or change in stance at the nick of time.

And the above happens when shooter is desperately trying to keep the FST absolutely still on the POA and loses his concentration on the vital aspects. Align the sights correctly on POA and let the FST shake a bit, if it will. JUST FORGET ABOUT IT and the best way of doing that is by focusing on FST so hard that the POA is blurred and the FST does not appear to be shaking (whereas actually it is).

Good luck. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Understood and noted.

I will put the above in practice with full concentration with ISSF target and will updated you asap.

Thank you.
Cheers :handgestures-salute:

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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I need some help with the Houge Grip.

It has become loose on the frame, rotates on the frame on every shot...

Is there a way to getting this fixed without jeopardizing the value of the gun/frame?

Thank you...
Cheers...

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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Please do not use the grip if it is lose and moves in the hand when you are shooting. It is obviously not the correct size. May like to fix them with a non-permanent glue that can be cleaned when the grips are removed. Better buy new grips.

regrads

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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NG bhai akele akele ho k agaye...
How was ur trip to karsaz?
How it felt shooting there?
Experience with clays?
Do share the gained experience.

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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KARSAZ SNEAK TRIP 20-05-2014

A big thanks to Adil for accompanying me to Karsaz Range. Getting the look and feel of the environment was important for the competition day, so...

Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................166/200
Image



Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................166/200
Image

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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ASCCL SNEAK TRIP 23-05-2014

Reached the range early, with SA. Discussed some important aspects of the upcoming competition. Reached the range after 9am, and went straight to dry firing, and then to live ammo. Tried to concentrate but some how was unable to deliver to the full...

Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................162/200
Image
Image




Analyzed the above target and decided to put some attention into my Natural Point of Aim. Result was the following...
Shooter....................Naveed Ghani
Weapon....................CF-98
Ammo......................China Red Box 9mm
Distance...................25 Meters
Technique.................Deliberate, both hands
Score........................170/200
Image
Image

Thank you Wajeeh for the ride back :)

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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 Post subject: Re: NG - Range Practice Sessions | Results

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ASCCL Sunday TRIP 23-05-2014

Got late due to the long waiting line at the gas station. When reached, only found SA with his friend who were almost done for the day. When I started shooting, I realized that it was too windy and anything shot would be a waste of rounds. So decided to experiment with single hand. Was chuffed to see that all landed on the paper, however way off the target. Also realized that its a hell lot tougher to keep the hand steady, to keep the shoulder intact for that long and to be able to pull the trigger in squeezing fashion. I can see the grip has a huge role in being able to keep oneself calm, and I believe single hand practice would mean a lot of improvement with both hands moving forwards. I also realized I need to start working on my shoulders, as I couldn't hold my arm up for more than 3 shots and had to take a couple of minutes break before I could finish my string. The first string I shot resulted in a 4-5 inch group at exactly 12 o clock on which SA was kind enough to motivate me, and also indicated that I was unable to keep the sights aligned long enough, also with every second that passed i felt the grip was getting tighter where I had to bring the gun down and start all over again with a lighter grip.

A lot to take in for the first time! Please advise the way forward...Should I practice with single hand, occasionally or regularly, or just stick to both hands for now?

Thank you.
Cheers...

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